The Dink Network

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I'm going to post it here anyway. When are there going to be some cool new Epic, or even Quest-sized D-Mods? And when, specifically is SimonK going to finish 'Necromancer', the third installment in his Stone of Balance trilogy. I'm a huge fan of some of the mods produced in the Dink community, and of the original game (although I have to say that I think SimonK is the most talented one among you). In sum, I suppose my point is that the one thing this site is sorely lacking in is new content, and has been for some time. I mean, I personally have played most of the longer D-mods, (Epic, Quest), and a lot of the others, generally anything that seems worth downloading (cogent description, good-to-mediocre rating, decent plot, not bug-ridden, and not-horrible reviews), and even a few that weren't.

To be quite honest, this site is about the best that I've found in the entire internet gaming community, as far user-created add-on games go, and used to be one of my favorite places on the net to visit.

However, lately. I haven't really had much reason to come here, as it seems more or less exhausted. And I get a little tired of picking through the bug-ridden 5-10 minute mods that are clearly the result of a single bored afternoon of an unskilled programmer.

I mean this in as constructive a way as possible, but I suppose my main question is: WHAT HAPPENED?
Not long after Dink was released as freeware, it seemed like there was a veritable burst of creativity with regard to making D-mods that has all but died down.

If you've read this far, I'd also like to add that I've experimented with DinkC in the past myself, in order to maybe try to author some of this content that I found so sorely lacking, (rather than merely complain) and that even though I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, I find learning new programming languages incredibly daunting, even DinkC. However, at some future date, I do still aspire to author the superlative D-Mod.

Answers, questions, opinions, ad-hominem attacks are all welcome.

-rcbanks

P.S. Why the hell was 'Back from the Grave' never finished by anybody? That one was really cool.

STRIKER!! Another one with the same, simple question! I quess you'll have to finish Back from the Grave now!?

Maybe you'll get fired from the Gates of Hell now! So, I recommend finishing it!

P.S: Necromancer will probably never be finished, never ever. *SOB*

Well, I think the main reason there are less DMODs nowadays is the aging community. Most of the DMOD authors who have created great DMODs have done so at least three years ago. Those people have less time on their hands (study, work etc.) or have new projects they're working on (unrelated to Dink). There just doesn't seem to be a large amount of new authors...

Exactly. I was going to write a lengthy reply to this (I still might), but the crux of the problem is that a lot of the "better" d-mod authors (SimonK, Paul Pliska, Simeon, Redink etc) have moved on to other things, and simply don't have the time to invest in a d-mod... at least, not one of the high standards they have set themselves.

Yet in the last 5 years or so, nobody has stepped in to this void. There are no "new" SimonK's around... or not that I've noticed. Whilst there are still promising d-mods in production, the d-mod scene has certainly grown stagnant.

Also, new authors seem to be too ambitious. Rather than planning a romp, and keeping it simple whilst learning the basics of DinkC, they aim to create an epic to rival the greatest d-mods ever released. Inevitably they fail, and nothing gets done.

Expect a contest soon.

With the Time Traveller in good production, I hope to inspire some people to either begin D-Modding, if they haven't already done so, or to go back to D-Modding, if they gave it up a while back. Or, as I'm young, and I won't be getting a job for about 2 years, maybe I'll be the next 'SimonK'.

Well, that went better than expected. I guess some of you out there share my sentiments. I thought I'd get blasted for sure.

Skull, do you have it on good authority that SimonK has no plans to finish Necromancer soon? Please explain.

Also, just to put this out there. I do have a little experience with C++. I learned to write number crunching programs and such in college. I never made to the stage of programming sprites, graphics, etc., though.

For those of you who are familiar, can you compare C++ to DinkC, just so that I might have some idea what I'm up against? Similarities, differences, etc.

I'm more than willing to help the community, but I must confess I'm more of a writer than a programmer. I have a lot of good ideas and such, but coding can get mind-numbing after awhile.

Although I must say, after viewing Simon's games, and Gary Hertel's, redink1's, etc., I'm aware of what the Dink engine is capable of, and I'm convinced that it can create something better than any of us have seen, yet. The pieces are all there. We just need a skilled and dedicated programmer.

I plan to put some study into this. I think I can make a good one.

Basically, if you were to read a bunch of tutorials that described the C++ language from basic to advanced topics, only the first few tutorials would be useful in DinkC. DinkC is very basic compared to other languages as it has not many control structures, no strings and not much capability for non-trivial math.

The syntax of DinkC and C++ is similar but DinkC is more limited: it's a curly-braced language with functions that are called when needed (for example, the talk function is called when Dink attempts to talk to a sprite). DinkC scripts are a sequence of statements that tell the sprites and Dink what to do. The DinkC reference has an overview of all the functions that can be called so you could look things up there.

Well, all Dinkers, are almaoust sure, that Necromancer will never be finished.

And the DinkC isn't so capable for everything. It is pretty easy to use, and the ones, who make graphics are just good artists, and the ones who create e.g: little, animated movies for Dink, just make it with other programs and use Dink's graphics for that.

Although, if you really wanna be a good programmer some day in the future, the good place to start is here.

I hope that answers for some questions.

Very helpful, actually. I thought DinkC was a lot simpler. It's just that some of it still looks like Greek at this point. I figured that if I actually took the trouble to finish learning C++, DinkC would be cake.

On a side note, I bothered to create an account today. You can only lurk around for so many years, I guess. I was 17, I think, when I first downloaded Dink. I'm 25, now. The website referred to me as a Peasant.
My first response was: "How the hell did you know?"

I think I'd rather be a pheasant than a peasant.

Maybe Tal can make that happen.

Well, you have to consider what you want: C++ is a full-blown language for real world purposes. As such, it contains many features that you don't need to know or understand when scripting in DinkC. If your goal is to create a D-Mod, there's no need to know C++ by heart. If DinkC (or some of it) looks Greek to you, you may want to start learning that first instead of taking the more difficult approach of learning C++ first and then DinkC.

I wanted to type a lengthy reply, but fudge it. I can only hope you eventually try to make a D-Mod for yourself. Some tips:

1) Download The Rudiments of Scripting by Binirit.

2) Download Skeleten by Joshriot.

3) Download Dink Goes Boating by SimonK. It's kind of a Tutorial D-Mod - very intuitive and fun.

4) Read a little of The Rudiments of Scripting

5) Play through Dink Goes Boating, while reading some Rudiments of Scripting, while fooling around in the Dink Editor a bit.

6) Finish Dink Goes Boating, read some more tutorials and try to make a small test D-Mod.

7) Don't be afrad to ask any questions here, people will gladly assist you.

8) Eventually, you will make your first kick-ass D-Mod, and there will be much rejoicing.

9) ???

10) Profit!!

10) Profit!!

How I wish. How I really do wish...

I guess I phrased that ambiguously. I was just curious about the overlap. I'm learning C++ for my own purposes, not for Dink. I just wondered how inclusive the skill sets were. I would like to write other stuff, someday, too.

I have a romp ready soon, will that do?
Although it is (pill)bug ridden

I'm also making a D-Mod that looks like it'll be quest size but it's some way from completion. It's looking good, though I say so myself.

Lay it on me, hawk. I'm always eager for a new story.

A good romp is better than a bad epic. And it has a higher chance of actually getting finished too...

Just get a betatester...

Actually, to me, it depends on the degree of 'bad'. Right now, what I'm looking for is a long story that I could get sucked into.

So, I think I'd rather play a mediocre epic, with standard, if unsurpising elements, than an excellent romp.

I'm just saying, if it's over in ten minutes, then no matter how much you impress me with your innovations, you only took up ten minutes of my time, and I'll still be disappointed.

Nuff said. Do your best at any rate. We'll worry about how to categorize it later.

The reason why there're fewer D-Mod creators now might be that the game is about ten years old. But let's not forget the D-Mods that are in current progress such as Sabres CC3 and Endys D-Mod sounds surprising too. They will both be epic (if released ^^).

When I played this game some years agom I was hooked. I haven't played any D-Mods in quite some time but I'm stuck anyway

yes i actually have the time to write lengthy replies

1. i am currently working on a DMOD that is curently a mix between romp and epic. well, it is hard for me to judge becuasei made the game and know where to find everything, so i probably play it faster. but i'm guessing it will be about quest sized
2. i'm still young and check TDN nearly everyday. i also know how to use DinkC well (maybe not as good as others)
3. unfortunately i have this game i kinda like more than dink... called WoW... meaning i might not be able to finish DESA by my estimate of half way through the year. someone give me slap/pinch/kick where the sun don't shine and give me inspiration to continue making DESA.

ok i'll give you a bit of a hint... DESA wasn't my first planned project. but i had to abandon land of destruction due to my computer failing. so i started DESA. originaly it was a test but it had good concepts in it (apparently) so i tidied it of the junk and started developing. now i have so many ideas. if you can wait a few years i *may* be able to give you 2 epic/quest dmods. maybe even 3... or if you are lucky, a fourth one. all sequels.

how wants the job of pinching/slapping/kicking?

It's a meme.

Can I shoot you please?

I've got an oddball proof of concept romp I've got just about done. The map is essentially done, and the key generation code. The dialogue and sprite generation should be done in a day or two. It's designed to be endlessly replayable, using a unique random value generator script, to handle most of the load.

Think I've found a way to get quality short romp creation down to just a few days. Depending on how this one is received I'll see about making more.

I've always had too big ambitions but as my D-mod progressed along with my skill it turned into something manageable. I think some people have this idea that if they put 50 hours work into something then it should take at least a couple of hours to finish when it could only take 30 mins to complete everything.

Some people have too many projects and when one gets boring or seems to hard they start a new one. I myself tried making a smallish D-mod based around a graphics pack and then started trying to make a 1 screen D-mod for the contest. Both died with less than an hours work into them but at the time it seemed a good idea.

Try finishing a piece of work, something like a mini D-mod. Just to give you a concept of how you go about scripting and finishing a project, if it's good upload it.

This is just my ramblings on something I hadn't read previously so I wanted to reply to every post in one.

Any input is welcome.

OK, now I'm depressed. I've just been informed of the mysterious death/disappearance of SimonK.

That lowers my hopes for a great new mod anytime soon...

Hmm, maybe he got sucked into the Bermuda triangle like JVeenhof and Sphinx. Who knows?

And while we're on the subject, someone else (Raven) wrote a D-mod that I thought was hilarious, the one about the Smashing Barrels Voice. That one had great potential, but only about 1/3 of the story was complete when you beat the game.

I wonder which vortex Raven got sucked into.

Ah, well. Any of us could be next, I guess.

"OK, now I'm depressed. I've just been informed of the mysterious death/disappearance of SimonK.

That lowers my hopes for a great new mod anytime soon..."

There are authors with d-mods in production who have made d-mods to rival Simon's - Wesley's Legend of Tenjin was a terrific game. If you haven't played it already, I would advise you try it out. His remake of FB2 is highly anticipated.

Also, I, Kara Gu is the best d-mod ever released. I need to write a review for that at some point... Hmm. Later today, maybe.

Um, I hate to have to correct you here, but "Legend of Tenjin" and "I, Kara Gu" fall into the "good" category, not "great."

I have played them both. Legend of Tenjin is big enough, but it's a little buggy, and the plotline is inscrutable. Getting the best ending is nigh impossible without doing internet research (i.e. finding a walkthrough). Also, there's a point where you have to find the exact right spot to punch, or you're stuck. I beat on the castle at Kingdom Smile forever, trying to get in, only to realize I had to smack the exact center of the door. Plus, it just wasn't as polished as anything SimonK, or even redink has released. Comparison is unwarranted.

As for "I, Kara Gu", I appreciate weirdness more than most people, but this one is weird in a way that doesn't add a whole lot to its quality. For one, the main character can't use a weapon, strictly magic. Something else about this game, is that it contains the implicit idea that women are superior to men, which I think can be disproven in real life by trial and error. [Sorry to any violent feminists who may be reading this.] If I recall correctly, the Earth/Air wizards were all male, and thus inferior and corruptible, which just plain sucks, IMHO. Also, it relies too heavily on elemental themes.

Neither of these really has the depth or imagination of some others I can think of, not just Simon's games. "best D-mod ever" is laughable.

As far as anyone rivaling SimonK, no, not really. It was a huge blow to my pride to admit this initially (seeing that SimonK is younger than me, and you know I haven't created anything), but there really isn't anyone else whose work can compare to his. He's on a level all his own.
{Practically no bugs, graphical and storyline innovations, new elements like riddles and such, and plenty of humor as well. Also, in general, there's just WAY more that you can do in his games.}

In related matters, aren't you responsible for the Cloud Castle series? Both of those are better than either of the ones you mentioned. Credit where it's due. Still in the "good" category, though, not "great", but I eagerly await the next one.

In closing,
Best D-mod ever: (Either 'Stone of Balance', or its sequel 'Pilgrim's Quest')
Best effect ever: The freeze spell from 'Prophecy of the Ancients'

Enjoy.
-rcbanks

"Something else about this game, is that it contains the implicit idea that women are superior to men, which I think can be disproven in real life by trial and error."

Can men wash clothes without losing the colour? Can men do the washing up without breaking a plate? Can men prepare dinner without driving to McDonald's?

This is a fantasy game, in fantasy games, anything goes. No one cares about the realism, it's all about the enjoyment factor. Arik went to great hights to make that D-Mod, and look what we got. An amazing, who-cares-if-you-can't-use-weapons-you've-got-all-the-magic-you-want, D-Mod!

On another note, I've really got to play the FB Mods, don't I?

"Um, I hate to have to correct you here, but 'Legend of Tenjin' and 'I, Kara Gu' fall into the 'good' category, not 'great.'"

It deeply irritates me when anyone makes a serious attempt to pass his or her opinion as fact.

Pet peeve aside, I think it's also ridiculous of you to remark that SimonK's D-Mods are practically bug-free. I understand that implies that there are almost no obvious bugs as opposed to flat-out saying "There are NO bugs," but if you had played any of Simon's D-Mods in their original forms, you'd realize his work was just as prone to errors as anyone else's.

Everyone has different tastes in what is good and what is great, but you really should know that by now if you're actually older than, of all people, SimonK.

I'm a kick-ass dinner-maker myself.

It just goes to show how different tastes people have. I for one don't think SimonK's dmods are that good, they always seem to lack something to keep me interested in playing and nothing besides the graphics is really that great- Everything is done well, but doesn't stand out.

I still think POTA is the best epic ever, even with it's many flaws. I, Kara Gu was definitely awesome but as you said it focuses too much on one thing. No dmod is that superior, really. (Perhaps POTA when it was released but that's irrelevant now)

I really liked playing SimonK's DMODs. Once. But his DMODs don't seem to have a good replay value to me. (except progeny and The Isle of Croth) Playing Pilgrim's Quest for the second time (even five years after originally playing it) I just couldn't get into the story. Plus if you want to play it faster it can get really frustrating to know there are all kinds of 'stat checks' present. And for Stone of Balance... Well I never fully played through it. I did like it, but for some reason I haven't played trough it.

My personal favorites would be Cloud Castle 2 and Initiation. Cloud Castle because of the great dialogs and atmosphere (though the story doesn't build up properly), and initiation for it's non-linear gameplay and innovative scripting.

"As for "I, Kara Gu", I appreciate weirdness more than most people, but this one is weird in a way that doesn't add a whole lot to its quality. For one, the main character can't use a weapon, strictly magic. Something else about this game, is that it contains the implicit idea that women are superior to men, which I think can be disproven in real life by trial and error. [Sorry to any violent feminists who may be reading this.] If I recall correctly, the Earth/Air wizards were all male, and thus inferior and corruptible, which just plain sucks, IMHO. Also, it relies too heavily on elemental themes".

It contains the implicit idea that women are superior to men? Are you serious? I can pretty much guarantee Arik didn't have this in mind during it's creation - Though he'll probably contradict that now, just to bug me.

In my opinion there are numerous "Great" d-mods out there. These being; Pilgrims Quest, Stone of Balance, FIAT, Initiation, Prophecy of the Ancients and Cloud Castle 2. Those could perhaps be regarded as the "big hitters", which each contain elements that set them apart from anything else yet released.

There are others which would perhaps miss out on this category solely due to length/unfinished status. Back from the Grave, Crosslink, I, Kara Gu and Lyna's Story come to mind here.

I personally have never been a big fan of Simon's d-mods. Whilst they have superb graphics and are wonderfully constructed, I've always found them quite dull. However, I can certainly see why they are held in such high regard.

EDIT: Yes, I am partially responsible for the Cloud Castle series. Oh, and whilst I'm at it - I, Kara Gu has no imagination? Ugh.

Nice discussion you're having here. Seriously, it was too long ago that we had a proper discussion about D-Mods here.

I understand SimonK's D-Mods generally are held in higher regard than most (any?) other D-Mods. This is probably due to the fact Simon always polishes his D-Mods to the nth degree and it uses many new graphics.

I always liked Friends Beyond 3 the best of all D-Mods, but it's not very good compared to other D-Mods such as Prophecy of the Ancients, Initiation, Lyna's Story, etc. I haven't played I, Kara Gu yet. Shame on me. I have it here on my hard disk so I'll probaby start playing it tomorrow.

"It deeply irritates me when anyone makes a serious attempt to pass his or her opinion as fact."

I'm with you there.

Anyway, my favourites are probably CC2 and Initiation. They're both fun to play, funny, and have good replay value. No huge empty maps or boring generic houses.
Others come pretty close though: Legend of Tenjin, SOB and PQ spring to mind, among others. I must replay POTA at some point...

From memory, I think I had the most fun with Pilgrim's Quest, as it still holds the #1. The second spot would go to Cloud Castle 2, and then probably Stone of Balance.

I've probably played POTA more times than any other mod, save Mystery Island. POTA used to be my favorite... but it just seem to hold up as well as I remembered last play through.

This is probably due to the fact Simon always polishes his D-Mods to the nth degree and it uses many new graphics.

I've always thought this was a big factor in his success. Saying that, I positively loved the beginning of Stone of Balance - The disembodied being of evil (and it's maniacal laugh in particular) was brilliant. The first world of SOB was truly exceptional, but I soon lost interest after that. That's not a criticism really... I never finish other people's d-mods.

Nothing compares to the beginning of Legend of Tenjin. Heck, my Once a Hero d-mod was completely inspired by that game.

POTA didn't hold up worth a dang. I can't point out the particulars at this moment, not having played it in so long, but I know it doesn't have a lot going for it (in my opinion) other than the interesting transformations and that it paved the way for every other epic, most of which were substantially better than POTA.

As for Simon's D-Mods... Stone of Balance is easily one of my favorites. I never even came close to finishing Pilgrim's Quest, though; it isn't very engaging from the beginning.

I'm going to disagree there. Aside from the cutscenes at the very, very beginning, I could barely stay awake during playable LoT intro. The cutscenes get you all geared up for awesome, and you get so let down.

Well, I suppose if you're pissed off, then at least it means you're paying attention.

Tal, it would probably do well for you to not take me too seriously, as I am usually somewhat kidding in what I say.

I was just trying to spark a friendly(?) argument here, and it looks like I succeeded, with perhaps some dissent and revolution as well.

Clearly some of you are on the same page I am. POTA used to be my favorite as well, until Stone of Balance more or less blew that one out of the water.

And a few people hit the nail on the head. The graphical innovations and polish are precisely the reason his D-mods stand out, not to mention the sheer volume of content. I'm just not sure how you could get bored with his work. It seems like he takes a classical genre (my comfort zone), then revamps it totally (my high mark for being impressed).

And if any of you found PQ boring, or couldn't get into it, then one of two things must have happened: Either you found the beginning too difficult and gave up, or you just weren't paying attention.

I agree with the sentiment that BFTG would have been one of the greatest of all time, IF it had been finished.

Also, I'm not really sure where Legend of Tenjin gets all this acclaim from, if not for its sheer size. The plot was OK, but I didn't think the game mechanics were very good, and I've played many that were better, a lot of which were way smaller. Different strokes, I suppose. I'm not trying to slam Wesley here, but FB3 was the only one of the series I found tolerable. FB3/LoT was kind of a let-down for me.
[I was most disappointed that there was really nothing to do with the doll. The choice of dolls seemed a lot more important than it was. ]

As to replay value, I get bored easily and always need to explore the new and the unknown, therefore almost nothing has replay value to me. PQ is the only one I've played straight through twice (that I recall), and there was a long period of time in between.

I mentioned redink earlier, because I consider him one of the "great" D-mod authors as well, if only for Initiation. That one had a novel innovation as well: SOUND, with words in it (i.e. speech). I was so taken aback by that one. It just made me wonder why no one had ever tried that before. Not completely necessary, true, but cool.

And again, I am not trying to claim that my opinion is gospel. Unless, of course... you all want to bow down and start worshipping me, in which case we'll rethink that. I am right, but that's another matter entirely.

And as for Sabre's comment, well, there is a list of 'great' D-mods and authors, and most of the ones you mentioned qualify. However, that list IS pretty small in my opinion. And I'm sorry, but CC2 falls a little short of great in my opinion. I liked it. It was good, and 'innovative' even. I liked the use of multiple characters. Maybe, if you had made it a little longer...

As for Tal's comment, I'm only critiquing the final releases of each game, as that's all I've been playing. I think that's fair. I don't think it's fair to look at someone's work at each step of the process and call it "buggy". Whatever they leave to the public, and stop actively working on, that's going to get the criticism. If you leave something half-finished, so be it. And I never said SimonK was perfect, if you got that out of my earlier posts, you were completely mischaracterizing my statements.

So there. Some of you are taking this way too seriously. Get in your pot-shots while you can, but put away the pitchforks and witchbane.

-rcbanks

And again, I am not trying to claim that my opinion is gospel. Unless, of course... you all want to bow down and start worshipping me, in which case we'll rethink that. I am right, but that's another matter entirely.

It's impossible to be right about something that is completely subjective. You can't be wrong either, that's why I'm going to accuse you of having poor taste instead.

...Seriously, I think you're giving way too much weight to the pretty graphics. I find them insignificant when compared with things like innovativity, gameplay, humour, even music. Things that other dmods do better than SOB or PQ. Were the graphics used innovatively I'd praise SimonK for that, but they're not; They're just beautiful graphics, they're not used in especially clever or original ways.

So there. Some of you are taking this way too seriously. Get in your pot-shots while you can, but put away the pitchforks and witchbane.

*Waves pitchfork*

Personally, I really appreciate the coding techniques behind the games, rather than the fancy graphics on top.

"They're just beautiful graphics, they're not used in especially clever or original ways."

The hookers were nice.

...says Mr. "The-evils-of-pornography"

...says Mr "I'm a big boy now."

...says Mr "still-fails-at-humor".

Mm, true. Very true.

If you are not being entirely serious, you are doing a very poor job of conveying any sarcasm, humor, or similar tones.

"And if any of you found PQ boring, or couldn't get into it, then one of two things must have happened: Either you found the beginning too difficult and gave up, or you just weren't paying attention."

I just thought it was really boring in comparison to SOB.

You strike me as having a little bit more pompousness than you need. Perhaps with time you can clear my first impressions, but for now I am wary of you.

Where's WC and his dang noob cannon when you need him.

Were you even around when WC was here? I have a feeling you weren't.

The beginning of Pilgrim's Quest wasn't difficult. It was badly thought out. It wasn't fun, it wasn't interesting, and it wasn't up to Simonk's extremely high standards. Particularly when you consider the opening chapter of Stone of Balance, and how exquisitely put together that was.

I've got huge issues with a couple of your points (namely volume of content and the way you coin CC2 'innovative'), but I tend to get carried away in defending CC2, so I'll leave those be.

Cloud Castle 2 couldn't have been made longer that it was. That game almost broke me.

"Though he'll probably contradict that now, just to bug me."

I'm so predictable, aren't I?

The thing about Stone of Balance and Pilgrim's Quest is that they're bone fide RPGs where the vast majority of dmods are action-adventures. There's a tremendous amount of scope to them, so much room to do things a little differently or to just plain do them wrong where other modules don't give you the choice. And it's nice to have modules where your actions have those kind of consequences. This kind of thing isn't for everybody though, and you can't dismiss the problem of having an overly difficult beginning. Stone of Balance really cheesed me off from the get-go with its tendency to dish out death by cutscene, and I'm afraid I never made it past the third world after a freeze bug caused by my inventory being full (I don't know if I was just playing an old version though). Pilgrim's quest's opening brick wall is the way it unceremoniously dumps you into a cave full of relatively tough, screenlocking enemies who are just kind of repetitious to bash your way through. It gets better from there, although I'm not sure I ever got around to enjoying the combat. And then you've got the quests that revolve entirely around boosting your stats to a certain level, which is kind of the worst kind of RPG gameplay. I'd never claim that these two were bad dmods, but they seem to me to put much more stock in what you can do in the game than in making it all fun.

The thing with Legend of Tenjin, a module that I would defend to the death despite all its flaws, is that it's not just big but it knows what to do with its size. The opening is languid but wonderful for it. It creates a real sense of place and an associated mood. To a lesser extent this happens throughout the first half of the game, with the most memorable tasks not being fighting (most monsters are readily avoided) but fruit mixing and shopkeeping. And this is turned upside down in the second half of the game, where SPOILERS KINDA you end up revisiting these places and they've all changed and suddenly become more dangerous. I know the first thing I did when I figured out how to use the warp system was head straight for the plateau, only to be confronted by a monster tougher than anything in the game up to that point. For all its bugs, mazes and direct lifts from squaresoft games, LOT did really well at crafting mood and creating a sense of place.

(I'll also defend Branches of Destiny, which is one of those games that you can return to years later and still manage to find something new in, but that was much more heavily flawed than Tenjin so I won't try too hard)

I wouldn't overemphasise size at all - as previously mentioned, Legend of Tenjin is probably the only module that really knows what to do with it (admittedly I haven't finished Stone of Balance). As much as I like FIAT and Prophecy of the Ancients, they're more notable for remaining high quality over their large size than for using their size to any special effect. Well, maybe FIAT does a bit. Lyna's Story and Initiation are really good examples of great dmods that use their compact size to their advantage. I'd say Initiation is probably the best module around. I'd also say that they demonstrate how a few new graphics, intelligently used, can be as good if not better than a whole raft of them.

(I have no perspective whatsoever on either of the Cloud Castle games, but I'd never try and argue that the first one was better than Legend of Tenjin. That's crazy talk)

Er, I'll shut up now.

Aren't I supposed to be Mr "I'm a big boy now"?

He's just saying it because everyone kept saying it.

WC wasn't as harsh as the infamy we give him.

Intiation is good, but I don't think it is the most entertaining and best D-Mod around. I haven't yet written a review for it, but I'd probably give it something like 7.8. points.

I say, that The Legend of Tenjin may be the best D-Mod around.

And something in Cloud Castles have always made my day! CC 2 is probably second-best D-Mod out here, since it has humour and many things involved in it.

And I should be Mr."Hairless-Ape" now.

Well, he deserved the nickname "noob cannon" though. He was never harsh to people such as myself. I mean, I got along great with WC. But if you acted like a noob, he wouldn't go easy on you, that's for sure. Jamie got his fair share of WC, if you know what I mean.

Yup! You got it, DaVince.

Though, from what I hear, he was like, feared by noobs throughout the United Dink Nations.

Wow. I can see this is going to require more work than I thought.

Scratcher: Hate to beat you over the head with this, but you force my hand. Have you ever considered that your view of subjectivism/objectivism visa vie the nonexistence of objectivism in matters of taste is, in itself, subjective? Also, stating that someone has "poor taste" implies the existence of objective criteria, where taste is concerned, namely degrees of "good" and "poor".

Tal: Before you start trying to pin the scarlet 'P' on me for pompousness, it might help your case if you stop waving around your imaginary crown for a second, just a second.

And on the sarcasm thing, first of all you can't hear the tone of my voice, which is a continual problem with web forums. Second of all, what makes it funny is the subtlety. I'm not going to ham it up by saying ", NOT" after all my posts. That would be obvious, and make me appear slightly smarter than a shoe.

And, before you break out the noob-cannon, 'Et tu, DD95?' I thought we had an understanding. Moreover, I've been playing this game for years, and lurking around the forum nearly as long. You all just don't know me. So, you can tap dance on the noob cannon for all I care.

In addition, to defend SimonK's work, from multiple onslaughts, I think the view some of you are taking about his mods is one-dimensional. Credit where it's due. The graphics weren't just pretty, they were new, innovative (unprecedented might be more accurate), and the gameplay was excellent. The only person to impress me on that level with their ingenuity was Seth with the original Dink Smallwood.

And there was plenty of humour. Way more than one might expect.
And as to the difficulty of PQ at the beginning, yes it was a long hard slog through relatively tough creatures with several screenlocks. It was excruciating to start with. But, that's what most of us consider a challenge. And that hardness (and even unpleasantness) is what makes it fun, for most of us. If the majority of D-mods involved prancing through the meadows with the Teletubbies, they'd all be suitably happy-go-lucky, and easy, and no one would play them. Explaining this thoroughly really involves getting into a longer argument than I want to here. It all goes back to Nietzsche's concept of agon/struggle. A quest must involve struggle, or it ceases to be fun and engaging. That's just the way the human mind works. Giving you awesome stats, and then reducing you to practically nil (as in PQ), is the perfect example of just such a dramatic, heroic struggle, against all odds.

And who didn't like the music in PQ? It started out with a "Highway to Hell" midi! You know? AC/DC?! My god, it was brilliant. It deserves brownie points just for that.

And, I wasn't going to mention the hookers. I was going to avoid that whole moral sub-argument, but come on. That was pretty great. Who else has the stones to produce something like that? Funny, debauched, and just awesome.

If you can't appreciate adolescent humor, well, you're playing the wrong series.

Sabre: I didn't mean to malign your magnum opus, there. I'm sure you're immensely proud of it, and it was a lot of work. Sorry if it was stressful for you. I just would have liked, personally, for it to be a little longer. That's what I was hoping for. Then again, I tend to rush through them. I'm going to let our little personal feud go, seeing as how you're a genuine Brit, and I'm just a sixth-generation half-breed. You have my respect, but keep it up, and I'll have to go IRA on you.

As for the FB series, on the whole, I found it very inchoate and disjointed. There's very little to tell you where you should be going, and what you should be doing most of the time, even in the way of hints. This is what some people think of as "non-linear." I didn't finish FB2 because it was so buggy. FB3 was better, but frankly, I just didn't care so much for the story after the world becomes ruined.

Arik: Deciphering your opinion seems a bit of a challenge (knowing what to do with size?). I will say this-- storywise, I did find CC1 more entertaining than FB3. It was smaller, but more polished, and more to my taste. Lyna's story was a good idea, but there was ultimately too little to do in it. And I understand your qualms about stat-check points. But I chalk that up to the necessary struggle of the quest. It can't all be too easy, can it?

The last thing I'll say is that Initiation was more funny than a serious RPG. I liked the survival aspect from the get-go. The Cast mythos/hierarchy could have been better explained.

Good day, gentlemen.

An intelligent dialog with valid and coherent points, interlaced with pointed barbs and personal attacks. This is what they call a good troll, friends.

Scratcher: Hate to beat you over the head with this, but you force my hand. Have you ever considered that your view of subjectivism/objectivism visa vie the nonexistence of objectivism in matters of taste is, in itself, subjective?

Yes.

Also, stating that someone has "poor taste" implies the existence of objective criteria, where taste is concerned, namely degrees of "good" and "poor".

No.

As for the rest of your post, suffice to say that I agree with Striker. I'm not sure whether you're more interested in discussing or just getting people worked up- Arguing about something like taste in games with such spite being something I don't really feel like putting an effort into.

"Have you ever considered that your view of subjectivism/objectivism visa vie the nonexistence of objectivism in matters of taste is, in itself, subjective?"

*cough*

"I'm sick of everyone here being either ignorant by ignoring my repeatedly saying so, or saying otherwise, hence acting as if they think they know me better than me (which is impossible)."

Striker got the ball rolling, scratcher used the force with great efficiency to propel the ball into its optimal path, and Sparrowhawk's divine intervention ensured a strike.

I'm sorry, rcbanks, but your continued efforts do not seem to serve you any positive returns. With each new post you present, you only appear more arrogant and adamant than before. Vouching for the worth of SimonK's works is one matter; trying to induce an inferiority complex in the rest of us simply because we see faults with his work is another.

I wouldn't say Simon's D-Mods are bad by any means. In fact, it'd likely toss me in the same boat of overbearing stubbornness as you, but I could go so far as to say that anyone who thinks Simon's D-Mods are absolute dreck is teetering on the brink of craziness. (Unless you have a steep moral basis, in which case the vulgarity of his work probably is a bit much for you, but I don't think that applies to any of the regular posters here.) Granted, it's pure opinion that dictates what any particular Dinker makes of a D-Mod, and neither excellence nor mediocrity is factual. It is obvious when more effort has been placed in a particular D-Mod than in most others, but relentless labor does not always correlate with overall entertainment. As evidenced in a few of the testimonies above, Simon's endeavor to present more depth and variety in both Stone of Balance and Pilgrim's Quest worked for and against his works. Some people enjoyed the challenge of the riddles or the introduction of new stats, but others opposed these features. Many enjoyed the flow and balance, but not everyone did.

Some people plan D-Mod development (and entertainment development in general) so intricately that it becomes a science, while some people develop what will entertain themselves with the hopes that others may enjoy their work. Regardless of the objectives chosen while crafting a D-Mod or the approach taken, the overall product will never be perfect. Hard work may please many, but it will never please everybody. The community's level of praise for Simon's work convinces me that your efforts to defend his every move are pointless.

I think my effort does serve a positive purpose.

Got you all talking again, didn't it?

And Striker, your back-handed compliment is something I'd consider as good a 'troll' as any. As far as the rest of you are concerned, I suppose it's an "attack" when it comes from me, but "constructive, fair-minded criticism" when it's source is anyone else.

Sparrowhawk, your not-so-subtle attempt to compare me to DraconicDink is not appreciated. I was just hoisting you on your own petard. Some of what he said is just unintelligible. And yes, 'poor taste' is an objective criticism, otherwise it's just 'taste' and if it's the opposite of yours, it's just different, not 'good', 'bad', or anything else. That is, if you're as subjective as you pretend to be, which you aren't.

Tal: Adamant, yes. Arrogant, bite me. I'm no more or less arrogant than anyone else here trying to defend his opinion.

I thought we were having an argument/discussion here. I'm just trying to win. If you expect me to relent, guess again.

Again, not defending Simon's every move. Although I can see how painting my argument as simplisticly as that would make it easier for you to win-- 'straw man' tactic, there.

But, back to the original point, as to the efforts my postings have served...

How the hell do you entertain yourselves? As far as I can see, it's in much the same way.

And try taking some personal responsibility, if anyone here has in inferiority complex (which I highly doubt), it's 100% their problem, and 0% mine. That's not what I'm trying to do, although I can see how a difference of opinion might be interpreted as a personal attack and stunt the mental growth and personal development of the weak-minded. Please.

And for the paranoid among you, that last comment was not directed at anyone personally, Tal.

For the record, my aim was not to enshrine Simon's work, but to have it portrayed in the proper perspective. One thing you said is true, more effort really does show through.

However, the truth of it is that all these points are really mute, now.

All these mods are over and done with. Yesterday's news. Let's see some new stuff. Which was my original point, if you'll notice.

Just letting you know, you're definitely a lot less arrogant than me.

I was joking - hence the little orange guy with his tongue out. That bit about subjectivism just seemed DraconicDinkish. I was not even here when DD was, I've only seen his quotes and read several threads involving his arguments.

"I thought we were having an argument/discussion here. I'm just trying to win."

This is everyone's point. It's opinion for goodness' sake - how can you win?

Also, I believe the 'personal attacks' Striker was referring to were things like 'it might help your case if you stop waving around your imaginary crown for a second, just a second.' and 'Et tu, DD95?', not your points about the D-Mods.

And these points are not moot, we were talking about which older D-Mods are peoples favourites, so as long as those D-Mods exist we'll be discussing them. I know there's a difference between arguing about favourites and arguing about which are 'better' but both ways it's opinion really, and there can be no winner. Unless everyone else gives up, but that's not much of a victory.

Edit: Oh, and I don't like AC/DC.

"You have my respect, but keep it up, and I'll have to go IRA on you."

Wow. You should do stand up. The bombing of innocents always makes me chuckle.

And this, my friends, is an example of what can happen when people edit their posts. Who is he replying too? Nobody knows.

So, you detected some post editing going on in this thread too, eh?

Which is why I suggested long ago that posts should have a history, so that even if people edit them, one can see what they originally said. With a little notification that they were edited somewhere, so people would know to check the history. Coolest would be a feature like Wikipedia's diff, showing exactly what was modified.

But, I'm a dreamer...

Heh, nice idea, Phoenix.

On another note, Nested View doesn't go this far across. Now I don't know who's replying to who!

There is a very good reason nested view stops.

Otherwise, it *wouldn't*.

I often edit my posts, but not the basic content. Perhaps if I've phrased something badly. I'll usually write EDIT: if I'm adding in a new point.

To what post are you referring, Chrispy?

Which brings me to another suggestion I made, DinkDude, which is having a link back to the post which was replied to. That way, you could just click it, and it would also work regardless of what kind of view you're using.

All my posts in this topic have luckily been directly underneath the post they were referring to. The whole 'innocent..' line changing after you replied to it bit.

Sabre,

That bit about the IRA wasn't so much a joke, as I suppose a thoughtless barb, by me. I guess it was tasteless of me to mention that, considering that the ongoing struggle is basically taking place in your backyard.

However, I will say this, considering that it involves, in some sense, my own people: To my understanding, the only innocents getting bombed there are the Irish, and the IRA aren't the ones doing it. They're just a group of nationalists trying to reclaim half their country from a group of foreign occupiers, with zero help from an Irish government that claims them constitutionally, but no longer has the spine to stand up for them.

At any rate, ignore my initial comment about the IRA, which in fact, was simply an oblique reference to the fact that you're British. And yes, that will be left out of my stand up routine.

...Are you Irish by any chance?

Anyway, this was 4 months ago. Why bring it up again now?

Aw, you know who really sucks? Yeah, I think so too.

Indeed.