The Dink Network

Yesterday I found out my teacher was a pedophile. My school apparently had no idea he was downloading child porn, despite him being charged last year BEFORE he was hired. Anyone else have experiences like this, where you don't get how the school could let stuff like this happen?

that is why im glad im home schooled...

Wow that's terrible. I remember years ago i had a teacher who was a drug dealer. :/

Back when I was last in school, there was a guy who everyday did something stupid enough to almost kill someone. He pushed people off cliffs and choked people and all sorta stuff. The head of the school had this stupid style of "Well, all the students are bunch of idiots, so they deserve it", and none of the other teachers had enough balls to tell the principal to duck off. At most, all they did was leave that school to never return.

It's funny, because now the school is trying to cover it up. The principal is going around to all the classes the pedo used to teach and try to explain that they knew nothing about it and it happened before he was hired... when asked why they hired him all the teachers dodge the question. The school even managed to convince the newspaper to write a follow up to try and increase their rep.

I had a teacher in my old school who was a crack addict (drug addict I mean). Even worse for us because mostly we are Muslims.

When i was in fifth grade, I had a teacher who ignored me and didn't give the the education I needed, humiliated me on a daily basis, and made every person in my grade hate me. All of this was a way to get me into Special Education. The kind retards go to. More kids in Special Ed. = more money for the school = more money in the school board's pocket = no future for me. Good thing my Dad got me to a great tutor.

One of the worst things about my school is they are around 12 or 13 and both boys and girls know adult things, watch porn, etc. I hate it. This is bad because even our male teachers join in.

By the way I feel terrible for you FireBall. It must be shocking to discover that your teacher downloads porn.

By the way I feel terrible for you FireBall. It must be shocking to discover that your teacher downloads porn.


It doesn't matter if he downloads porn, downloading that is legal. He downloaded child porn which is a criminal offense and he deserves to go to prison for life.

No, it shouldn't be legal. And child porn means he should be hanged or imprisoned for life or something.

No, it shouldn't be legal.

That's not what you will be saying in a few years. LOL

Meaning?

Meaning?

That's not what you will be asking in a few years. LOL

I hate porn. >_>

Well yeah, we already knew that you're a complete schizo so that really doesn't matter.

He has a two-year suspended sentance and has to register as a sex offender for only five years...

Hmm.. does it fall off after 5 years? Your laws are as bad as ours Fireball I hope it only went as far as downloading porn, and all your classmates are fine!

These guys can wreck kids lives FOREVER and they just get a slap on the wrist Yeah I know its a sickness - but even the "powers that be" know its a sickness that cannot be cured - just managed... 5 years is a joke... if his addiction to that could be helped then yeah give him another chance but it isnt something that can be "fixed" - poeple need to know if their kids are in danger for life not for 5 years.....

ohh you shouldnt have gotten me started! Shuts up :X <-- Zip!

What a little punishment. After 5 years, he gets to do it all again?

If the students were alright, then there's really no damage done. I had a teacher a bit like that. He apparently looked at certain female students a bit funny, and then got fired for "stealing money from the canteen".

It's in their interests to cover it up. A boarding school nearby to mine had a great scandal in which it was found that 30 years earlier, the priests had done various things with students which had scarred them for life. If you look at their Wikipedia page, some school representative keeps trying to blank the section on Sexual Abuse.

Your school board sounds pretty smart. They must have known he loved children.

What did the priests do?

Even though I consider child porn a crime, I find it very interesting how our society emphasize that pornography is okay if all the sides were fine with the fact that they were included, and that fantasies are okay as long as they remain fantasies. But then when it comes to children in pornography or fantasies about children, it is considered illegal and an illness.

My personal thoughts are, anyone who watches child porn should go to jail for life. period.

But then when it comes to children in pornography or fantasies about children, it is considered illegal and an illness.

I think that's because, after all, there is no legal way to get a minor to have sex with adults, so people who watch child porn are in some way supporting the ones who produce it and encouraging them to do more of it.

As for the fantasies about children bit? Beats me. People seem to connote pedophilia with actually raping children. What about those who just fantasize and leave it at that?

My personal thoughts are, anyone who watches child porn should go to jail for life. period.


Totally agree.

What about those who fantasise it and leave it at that

I figure out that it is bad for them, and if they tell someone, it's worse.

I used to be scitzophrenic.

Who isn't.

♪ The internet is for porn! ♫

SONIC BROOM!!

I think it goes without saying, but the priests repeatedly raped the boys over several years, or indecently touched them, telling them that it was their fault that they had such 'desires'. It's still going on at many Catholic boarding schools at overnight field trips and such.

They arrested over 30 in relation to the events, including teachers who had turned a blind eye. The victims now all have various dysfunctions involving intimacy with others, and being naked.

I don't understand how some guy can just look at a few pictures and get imprisoned, whereas a priest can fondle a young boy and get away with it for years on end.

Well, good thing they were arrested. But I thought priests were males ... ?

They were, most of them anyway.

Real idiots those boarding school owners then!

Yeah, most of them were males, but now they are almost extinct

Dead from food poisioning!

Originally posted by Skull:
"Even though I consider child porn a crime, I find it very interesting how our society emphasize that pornography is okay if all the sides were fine with the fact that they were included, and that fantasies are okay as long as they remain fantasies. But then when it comes to children in pornography or fantasies about children, it is considered illegal and an illness."


The Age of Consent is the age at which someone is considered to have the capacity to make their own decision on whether or not they wish to have sex. One may not have sex when younger than this age not because it is unsafe for one to do so, but because one is unlikely to know enough to make an educated decision (and are likely to be pressured into sex by an adult (Statutory Rape)).

So it is for pornography. A minor is not considered able to make an educated decision on whether they wish to have sex, or whether they wish to participate in a pornographic film (softcore pornography does involve sex).

It's also believed that watching child pornography can increase the strength of a paedophile's desires, prompting him to rape. This is the reason that even illustrated child pornography is illegal.

Try telling that to all the teenage girls who send pictures of themselves around...

Also, you raise some good points about the legality of it. I personally am against porn containing children and people who didn't give consent.

It's also believed that watching child pornography can increase the strength of a paedophile's desires, prompting him to rape. This is the reason that even illustrated child pornography is illegal.

Why doesn't non-child pornography have the same effect on non-pedophiles? Or does it?

It's also believed that watching child pornography can increase the strength of a paedophile's desires, prompting him to rape. This is the reason that even illustrated child pornography is illegal.

So basically, if a normal person watches a normal porno, that person is slightly increasing his urges to rape? Or is the connection just between adult and child? Or maybe when pain is involved?

Zo mani qewsti0ns.

The relation between violence in the media and violent behavior has always been a point of discussion without a clear outcome. Mainly because of a discussion about sampling bias. Do people get violent because of what they see or do people see things because they have violent tendencies? Which side you prefer to choose often depends on your general attitude. If you like violent games you believe they have no negative impact, if you would like people to play less games you think it has a profound impact.

It's the same thing for porn, if you think porn should be banned/restricted you're more likely to see a relation between rape and porn as when you believe everyone should watch whatever they want.

And for the record, I don't believe that child pornography is illegal primarily because it strengthens pedophile tendencies. It plays a role for sure, but I think it's mostly to decrease the demand in child pornography and make it harder for producers of child pornography to sell their wares. Less demand means (hopefully) less production as that is where the most harm is done.

Your perception of what is acceptable to you is defined by what is in your life, your experiences, what you see, what you hear, be it child porn, violence or fluffy wee bunnies... if you do it, see it, often enough - your perception does change because you become hardened/desensitised and it becomes acceptable and that next step is easier to take because your normality is too tame and you need more excitement be it on a game or in life. If it disgusts you, just do it, watch it, hear it longer and the repetition makes it acceptable.

If you watched your family beat the crap out of each other on a regular basis - it becomes normal No one questions it, it’s just the way your family is, it’s acceptable because all your life you have seen this and you are not shocked by it – it’s now your reality too.

Someone not used to being hurt daily by those they trust or being forced to strip so some guy can get his kicks off photos of them doing things they are too young to understand, can be incredibly shocked by it all for some silly reason. Just the same as someone who gets their kicks off those photos is not satisfied with the first basic shots, they need more because they become desensitised to this through looking at them and needing more.

How many of you act out the scenes and gameplay or roles you see in games or things you watch on the net or TV? Probably a number of you - so why wouldn’t paedophiles want to act out what they see as well as take it up a notch?

Taking something you see on the internet or TV to real life is a huge difference... I think that most people are perfectly capable of keeping fantasy separate from reality, hence seeing violence or porn in the media doesn't necessarily make you think it's acceptable in real life.

Whether watching/playing stuff is more of a negative or positive influence is also a contested point- it can be both. On one hand, watching child porn could "fuel" a pedophile into doing something in real life. On the other hand, it could serve as an outlet so that they don't have to act out their fantasies in reality. Not watching child porn isn't going to make those urges go away, any more than a normal person will stop wanting sex if they stop watching porn.

Real child porn is a horrible thing, but illustrated child porn is much more of a grey area... it's also not illegal in the US, IIRC.

I know that if you watch something over and over and over it is not going to have the same effect on you the 55th time as it did the first... whether it was funny or shocking - the more you watch it the more blase you become and that is what I meant so perhaps 'acceptable' was the wrong word to use

I know this little kid that thinks if he eats a certain kind of sweet he sees on an advert on TV, that he will be able to fly - eventually- because the guy in the advert eats it then whoosh - hes flying!! This kid doesn't know why it hasn't happened to him yet - but he keeps eating these and knows eventually he WILL fly - because he has seen it happen... that's the power of TV on a little mind. Now how do you think he would feel if he jumped off a roof and the wind caught his clothing and held him there for a bit - do you think that could be seen as positive reinforcement and maybe if he tried a bit higher or longer or whatever - that it could become his truth?

Younger people/children are more impressionable than older ones so yes while I don't think (well hope) you will be swayed by adverts, TV and the net at your wrinkly old age, I don't accept that younger people have that same ability to decide what they see is incorrect, not to the same extent. Their perception is based on their reality, as in upbringing, peers, family situation, and I think some fantasy as well, it all affects your perception of the world, we are products of our environment to a certain extent until we mature and realise we can retrain our realities.

Anyhow - I do agree that not watching won't stop the urges or the acting out of those, but why make it so easy? Heck if one child is saved from being abused isn't it worth not making it so readily available? Child porn is child porn - there is no "degree" its all "real" to the child involved - again how much damage to their psyche is dependent on their perception of whether this is normal for them or not


...scratcher can I ask what 'illustrated child porn' is? Do you just mean pictures or is that term meaning something else (haven't heard that used before and this is "sort of" the field I work in... I am intrigued)

Illustrated child porn usually refers to cartoon-like porn (lolicon). But it could also refer to other kinds of illustrated porn for example by using 3D modeling programs.

Thanks Meta - I can't believe they make cartoon porn? geesh how sad is that *dies laffin* does that actually do it for them? heheheheee oh sorry thats soooo sad !!

New Zealand was mentioned on that page. My eyes are forever scarred from reading that, even if it was mentioned in a somewhat positive context depending on how you view such a sentence.

MsDink, I find it even more sad how you "die laffin" at some peoples' fantasies. People have the right to have their own fantasies, without other people criticizing them. Whether it be child pornography or even ferking animated. In fact, do you know how many people commit suicide or fall into depression just because someone doesn't understand their fantasy or point of view (be it porn or something completely different) Actions are, of course, always wrong.

Another thing I find sad is how you say "normality". None of us are "normal". It's just a point of view, that narrow-sighted people use.

/me *bites knuckles* You are annoyed at me for not understanding someone who messes with a kid Skull?

Try telling that to all the teenage girls who send pictures of themselves around...

Also, you raise some good points about the legality of it. I personally am against porn containing children and people who didn't give consent.


I am against porn all around! Consent or not! That's why I turn pictures off in my browser.

^
Freak

Even those precautions may not be enough. Pornographic imagery may still find its way to reach the eyes of normal, healthy, unsuspecting TV viewers.

I am against porn all around! Consent or not! That's why I turn pictures off in my browser.

You're 12.

"Wasserbaum added that children who saw the televised breast in Europe, Australia, and various other nations throughout the world were somehow unaffected by the sight."

Are the US children soft or something? Anyway, such trauma wouldn't occur if there wasn't such a negative attitude towards nudity. It is a part of life, and yeah, you can call it indecent exposure, and I wouldn't expose little kids to it, but I wouldn't expect people to convinve them that stuff like that is bad to the point it scares them for life when they see it.

I know that if you watch something over and over and over it is not going to have the same effect on you the 55th time as it did the first... whether it was funny or shocking - the more you watch it the more blase you become and that is what I meant so perhaps 'acceptable' was the wrong word to use

I agree, I just don't think that getting used to seeing something on TV translates to getting used to the same thing in reality; I really don't think I'm one bit more prone to shooting someone in real life because it happens on the TV all the time, for example, than if I had never watched a violent TV program in my life.

I also agree that children are much more suspectible to being affected by stuff they see on the media... but it's not like pedophiles are children themselves. As long as the making of porn isn't actually harming children (read: illustrated porn), I'm not sure having it around is a bad thing.

An interesting comparison is whether watching regular porn increases a person's chances to commit rape: Social effects of pornography. It looks like all the credible studies support the absolute opposite; just IMHO, of course. =)

It's not a straight comparison, though, since any sexual activity with a child is bad, while people who watch regular porn can just go have sex without committing any crime.

Amen, brother. Us Aussie kids woulda been like, "Hell yeah! Instant replay!!"

"I am against porn all around! Consent or not! That's why I turn pictures off in my browser."

DD, you totally remind me of me a few years ago. It's very creepy.
But I do completely understand were you're coming from, having gone through the exact same thing as you; but I must say, if you're anything like I was, at your current age, it's not exactly a bad attitude to have. You will grow and mature, and most likely change your attitude slightly, but understand that you don't need to think porn is good, it's just childish to think it's bad.

Dr Phil, over and out.

I really don't think porn is the worst thing ever.
While child porn is sick and nasty, and should not be allowed under any circumstances, regular porn is all right. Let these people have their fantasies.

While child porn is sick and nasty, and should not be allowed under any circumstances, regular porn is all right. Let these people have their fantasies.

While that statement might be agreed by some, I don't think any king of porn should be legal; The process of stripping and posing in front of camera's just seems a bit more degrading than that advertising job where you swing a sign at people in streets sometimes dressed as a lowly mascot of the company. Porn is mostly disgusting in a way for obvious reasons and people only do it for the money, which in my opinion is a huge publicity fraud. On another topic, strip clubs are one of my personal most hated things in existence. Get payed to sink lower than any street-whore in the world while insulting men's intelligence is something I hate to see.

If someone wants to be known ny that reputation, then let them do it. It's their life. The difference is that with child porn it is mostly forced, and the child is 'degraded' against their will. Just because you think it is degrading for someone to do this, it might be the only way they can make their money and survive. And how is this insulting mens intelligence? 'Oh I went to a strip club last night' 'You retard!'... Just doesn't make sense to me.

Porn is mostly disgusting in a way for obvious reasons and people only do it for the money

It's their life, so they can do what they want.

I wasn't talking about the people who use/abuse pornography, I was describing how I don't like porn/strip clubs.

I didn't quite understand what DinkDude meant, where I came from? I just think we shouldn't say porn is bad to everyone, we should just not talk about it, someone is bound to start a discussion. Anyway, studying in a school where idiots talk of little else and male teachers don't discourage them, the Internet and Twilight has made me grow up too quick. It's good in one sense, because I can make my own decisions now. Well, what I hate is people who annoyingly say, "It's my life!" (Not referring to FireBall or kenji), but I'm not concerned about them so I don't care. I'm 12? Thanks for noticing. It would be a good idea for someone to lodge a complaint against FireBall's school to say that the head master doesn't stop the teachers, and my school that the teacher's don't stop the children. Oh, and MsDink, acting out roles from gameplay is dangerous, so I don't do it. Here's and article from my favourite magazine, Reader's Digest: Deadly Games . I would try it in games, but not in reality, remember: even a toy gun is dangerous if it's pill-like bullet hits you in the eye, your head snaps back and when you straighten it up, the eye is a gory bloody mess.
Quiztis wrote: The internet is for porn
Debatable. It depends on your perspective. The internet is always popping up porn, and sometimes even pop-up blockers don't work. And ooooh! can you teach me how to make these music signs?

I honestly cannot see why people hate porn/think it should be illegal. You don't have to watch it if you don't like it.

Originally posted by DinkDoodler:
"ooooh! can you teach me how to make these music signs?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters"

They're not there
Alt + 13 or 14, on the numpad.

ô˜-d↨8Š¥¥˜Š☼=♫ô♫¥ Got it!

DinkDoodler, if you are really going to live by the rules you have posted here on these forums, by the end of your life, you are going to notice how much more horrible you made your life, than the world made it for you.

Skull, what do you mean?

I mean, you are basically taking away the last of the fun, that the world offers you, if you follow the rules that you have posted on this forum

What rules?

Your "how to live" rules.

What's wrong with them?

I already told you. By the end of your life, you realise that you've taken all the fun out from your life.

Surely "The internet is for porn" is a song... Don't bring music into teh argument!

Also, as long as it doesn't affect other people negatively, I don't mind if people do whatever they want and say "It's my life". Also, I think you will find, that there are some teachers in many schools (especially secondary schools) that do speak to the students casually using such topics. I know a teacher at my school who is always trying to come up with a new insult for me, but I don't mind because he's pretty cool. If you really don't like what your teachers are doing, why don't you tell someone else or do something about it? I have successfully (with the rest of my class) driven out two horible teachers that nobody likes.

Yeah, it's a song/play and a very large part of teh internet are porn sites, so the muppet has a point.

Skull, please say what you want to say. Don't hang on the edge. If this is about religion, don't talk about it. Life isn't about only fun.

Actually, it is. I would much rather live for ten years, eat fast food and become an unhealthy and fat b*stard, while having fun, than live a boring and dull life with no fun whatsoever, for 90 years.

Also, just to make it clear. I don't "hang on the edge". You just don't seem to realize a simple sentence properly.

Or you could... Live long and prosper!

Aye?

I see. Is religion in this or not? And actually, if this is about religion, we think there is a place called Heaven. If we do what's right here, we get to live in Heaven, there we will live forever, we will eat anything except pork and alcohol and some other foods, we will have everything we could want, so I think that it IS nice to live like I do. ANd I don't live so tightly as you think. I play video games, I eat fast food, I weigh 60 kg(yes I am horribly overweight.)

Life is only about fun? You are very lucky to be able to say that, most of us will come on to things in life that are most definitely not funny. Knowing how to handle those feelings will make you a lot more balanced and improves your long term happiness.

As an example: Just because heroin is fun once you use it doesn't mean it's good for your long term happiness. In this case staying away from fun might actually improve your happiness in the long term... In the long term a balanced an calm life is likely to give you the most enduring happiness.

I guess that by fun, he meant pretty much the same thing as happiness.

I am not lucky. My life has not been a walk in a park at all.

Let's take your heroin example. Use the heroin once, gain the happiness it gives you, and then commit suicide. Thus, concluding in a short-lived, yet happy life. See my point?

And I can just say nothing but meh, at those silly religious beliefs. Soon they'll be telling us we only have one God in all religions.

Don't say meh. How would you feel if someone insulted YOUR religion? Please don't start a fight.
And what does this have to do with this thread?

My religion? Sir, I don't have a religion. I have a truth.

And what does it have to do with this thread? Nothing. I was just merely pointing out that you will lose all the fun in your life if you truly do as you say in your posts. You're the one who brought religion into this.

Just...SHUT THE HELL UP!! Is it impossible to go a week without some kind of stupid fight happening here?

Unfortunately, no. Not here, sir; Not here.

Ducking stop this retarded fighting already. I'm so goddang sick of all you idiots and I seriously wonder how any of you ever even managed to develop an understanding of language. Or maybe you didn't, that's how retarded you make yourself look by constantly starting fights everywhere.

I don't mean to offend or insult anyone here. I just would like to ask everyone to please mind their manners and keep it civil. No hard feelings ❤

(By the way, Muhammad was a child molester)

Shut up, n00bz! You pussies or what can't handle small fights?

I can't see a fight anywhere in this thread. I just see people discussing and then DinkDoo suddenly begs for me not to start a fight, and you guys becoming all schizo.

Stop, You're embarrassing yourself....

"...and you guys becoming all schizo."

Schizo? As in...

And why should you care if I embarrass myself? I stand by my statement. I don't see any fight in this thread.

Schizo? As in..
Nope DDude he USED to be schitzo...

... This is Schitzo

Ed:lol at the 0 satisfied customer bit

You all suck! Vudolak, why did you say Muhammad PBUH was so? What proof have you? I can't stand the duckers who say things like that for no reason, with no proof. You guys just can't get this through your shoot heads. It's our religion, we have our beliefs, so I have to defend them. If you wre in front of me I would ducking kill you. I never said Christianity or Jewism ducked so why do you?

I bet he has more proof about Muhammad being a child molester than you have about "god's" existence. Also, isn't killing someone who's in front of you, against the wishes of your "god"?

No it isn't. Killing an innocent isn't allowed, but someone who insults us can be brutally murdered and it's OK. And he has no proof. We have the Quran

I know, your religion is ducked up. Basically, if some kid was teasing and insulting others in school and was a Muslim, everyone would take it what's considered "normally" across the world. Now, if the person wasn't a Muslim, he/she would be killed and nobody cared. Sick.

I've read most of The Quran, along with lots of other holy books. Your "god" (which is a mistranslation of gods) is nothing but a misunderstanding that was made at some point during our history, because the technological uncivilization by the ancient people.

bet he has more proof about Muhammad being a child molester than you have about "god's" existence.

That's very offensive. You should be ashamed.

If anyone, DinkDoodler's parents should be ashamed for teaching him to be so narrow sighted.

And why the hell does this network take everything as "insulting". I'm just pointing out facts. There's no proof about a single God's existence. There's clear evidence that multiple gods existed, but not the way they teach us in schools... and in Pakistan, apparently.

Just shut up. Don't talk about religion if you're so uneducated. WHy does everyting about life turn into a fight whenever Skull is there? Don't mock everyone. If you had a religion you would know. Oh, and if the kid is insulting the religion, he would be beaten up. What enragens us more is that some people don't have the guts to show their faces but they still insult us while hiding behind the Internet. That's why I want to kill him. Not every Muslim does that. It's the fault of those duckers who pose as Muslims and kill people, known as " ruthless Islamic militants" to everyone, which is not true. Insulting Pakistan won't work, I hate this place anyways. Yeah, go saying aliens invented us, Skull. Real ugly.

I find it funny people never learn from their mistakes. They have always made the mistake that they do not believe in what has most evidence, but rather believe in some fairytales they turned truth into. No matter what you say, science has always won over religion, and always will. Back in the days, people described Earth flat, because of their religions suggested it was, until it was proven otherwise, by science. Besides, gods are aliens however you describe them. Whether from the lies and fairytales of the holy books, or from the scientific point of view of ancient humans.

Oh, and now you have twice proven how sick and twisted your religion is.

Also, the reason people are don't come over there and say the things, is probably because they're afraid they'll get shot at sight, because of your religious beliefs.

Any religion is a poison to the mind and world. Only causes problems with its existence.

Religion is true. All religions are true, some may even be the same originally. However, they are only true to a certain point. I find especially all the religions with one single God, plain idiocy.

I'm fine with any religion as long as it doesn't promote actions that would harm others or otherwise bring about injustice. In other words, probably only Buddhism. And even then, it's silly to believe in any religion if you're gonna take the scriptures as the law and the only truth. I can only support religion as a way to seek spiritual support and guidance. I can't support religion when it screws over innocent people, such as the Hindu society system, the discrimination of women in Islam regions, Christan leaders telling believers to not use condoms, ... And I can't support religion as an opponent of science, because science will always win.

I do wonder why this thread hasn't been locked though.

I don't see why this thread should be locked. All right, I admit maybe I went a LITTLE over the top in insulting his religion, but otherwise I don't see this as an epic flame war of ultimate destruction. I see it more like a sharing of beliefs, and two people who don't like eachother so much.

It is insulting because you're questioning his beliefs. Let people have their beliefs. What are you trying to achieve here? The only goal I see here is to hurt DinkDoodler, that's why I said you should be ashamed.

Also, Quiztis, I used to think like that as well but it's because we're living in a society where the needs of religion has been eliminated decades ago by more advanced technology and by a comfortable lifestyle. We don't need to pray for a better harvest, for our sickness to be cured and so forth like we may have had to do in the past. Religion has been exploited by many, not least of all the church itself. Ultimately, the idea with religion is a source of hope and righteousness; "If I am a good man - my actions will be rewarded". Even If you don't have to live by your religion, you can still chose to do it because you believe that you're becoming a better person. That's something very good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I've always seen it.

Edit: a very true fact remain, though. Most wars are started by different religious views.

Edit 2: DD: and if the kid is insulting the religion, he would be beaten up.

*Insert war here*

I can't help if someone gets hurt from me telling the truth to them. May sound naive, but then again, this ain't a contest about who's more mature than others.

And "good" is just a point of view. DinkDoodler's religion believes that it's good to kill those who oppose their religion and insults it. Some people think good as a way to heal and cure people.

By the way, I don't think the thread should be locked. It's a discussion, not a flame war.

"I can't help if someone gets hurt from me telling the truth to them. May sound naive, but then again, this ain't a contest about who's more mature than others."

And you're calling DinkDoodler narrow minded? My friend, you do have a thick skull. You can't say "I'm just telling him the truth", because to you, what he believes may be false, and something else may be true to you. And vice-versa for him.

For example, I believe there's plenty evidence to suggest my "religion" is true, after watching 101 DVDs and listening to 1001 sermons. You, however, obviously haven't watched those DVDs and listened to those sermons, therefore do not know the evidence, and thus, in being narrow-minded as you are, will immediately claim that I am false and you must enlighten me with "the truth". And you may have watched DVDs and heard messages regarding your "religion", but I have not, and therefore cannot tell you there's no evidence, simply because I haven't seen the evidence there is.

Which brings me to my next point: You cannot tell someone there is no evidence for their beliefs and religions unless you've actually searched for evidence and come up empty. Nothing is more annoying than religious debates when a muslim/christian/budhist/whatever says "My religion is the way!" and then someone else comes along and says "No, douchebag, there's no evidence". The second person is obviously incredibly narrow minded and has not even gone to search for evidence. And that's just silly.

'nuff said.

I agree with dink dude.

And marpro, most wars aren't started because of different religious views but most wars are blamed on different religious views. Leaders through history has always used religion to cover their real intetions (which often is economic).

I also think Religion is a good thing as long it accepts people with different faiths.
Oh and when a religion starts to grade people based on their archivements and give the different ranks it's also a worrying sign.

Again?

DinkDude, don't forget I am taking a little bit out of every religion around the world, while also turning it realistic and a scientific point of view. DinkDoodler, and you apparently, on the other hand, claim that your religion is the only way to go. So who's the narrow sighted? At least I am considering all religions truth to certain points. You're the ones who only see your religion as the correct one, and don't even try to turn it into a realistic point of view. You actually should be thanking me, I actually have more evidence about everyone's religion existing, than you have.

By the way, never watch DVDs to believe in something. It's full of narrow sighted people, who try to defend their points of view to no end, and waste your money for buying those DVDs. First study these things, as open minded as you can be, try to turn them somewhat scientific, and then in the very end, watch these DVDs or TV shows. They sum it all up for you to decide in which things to believe.

don't forget I am taking a little bit out of every religion around the world, while also turning it realistic and a scientific point of view.

?

Am I the only one totally not seeing that in your reactions? What I am seeing is someone bashing someone else's believes. Where is this so called science then? Just saying you're telling the truth is distinctly non-scientific. Even the exact definition of truth is often debated, especially in philosophy. (Try reading up on it, it can be fun.)

I am not saying you can't use scientific arguments in a religious debate, but then you should actually use them. Just because you have the same ideas as many scientist doesn't mean your arguments are scientific. Don't just say you have the best arguments, use them!

You're just saying that you "actually have more evidence about everyone's religion existing, than you have." Well, if that is the case you shouldn't have any problem using solid evidence instead of expecting us to rely on you having more knowledge about the truth then us. I for one have trouble accepting that at face value.

I'm not saying my religion is the way. Not at all. In fact, we also believe that your Prophets were there. And people just have a theory that Muslims stereotype women and kill everyone who is not a Muslim. It's the fault of the terrorists. They pose as Muslims, kill innocent people, destroy girl's schools and foriegn people. Even if you gave me the power to be cruel to women, I would not. What they shouldn't do is walk on the streets naked. Nor are we saying they should wrap themselves in 23 layers of clothing, underwear, shirts and trousers are fine. I repeat, due to some stupid terrorists, Muslims have been viewed as evil. Now, let's get to the point. Jewism is the belief of Moses, Christianity is the belief of Jesus / Isa, and Islam accepts Muhammad PBUH as the last prophet. Peace.

Why would I? If I told you the evidence, it would just cause more argument because people can't understand facts, apparently. Use common sense and you'll find the evidence in a matter of seconds.

Besides, even a moron would realize that I do have more evidence, even if I'm don't point out all millions of them.

I'm a proud Atheist and you're right Marpro, everyone should believe in what they want to. Use your head and keep your religious believes private. (especially on the DN)

I'm a proud Atheist and you're right Marpro, everyone should believe in what they want to.

Wow, that's exactly the thought that has gotten humans into the point they are today, which is idiocity.

Why would I? If I told you the evidence, it would just cause more argument because people can't understand facts, apparently. Use common sense and you'll find the evidence in a matter of seconds.

Besides, even a moron would realize that I do have more evidence, even if I'm don't point out all millions of them.

Yep... we are all the result of martian selective breeding of Alien's Swamp Monkeys.

It's just obvious.

No, we are their DNA manipulations. We look like them, and we soon will be able think like they did back then. Do not take them as "aliens", but as "astronauts". If humans were to find a living specie that was on the scientific level that our ancient ancestors were, on another planet, and we could somehow get there, we would become the very same kind of "gods", that they are to us.

I'd think a long way before mocking my, and those who think like me, knowledge, because you will, at the same time, be mocking your own religion.

Why would I? If I told you the evidence, it would just cause more argument because people can't understand facts, apparently. Use common sense and you'll find the evidence in a matter of seconds.

Besides, even a moron would realize that I do have more evidence, even if I'm don't point out all millions of them.

You're still saying your truth is the REAL truth and everyone that thinks different is more or less an idiot. And thus, you're STILL missing the point. You know what? I don't think you can handle the discussions so well... Because you seem more and more frustrated by every comment, even though no one are opposing you. Most people are saying "stop judge other and let them have their beliefs". No offense.

Edit: I realized that it isn't religion that starts war, it's people who can't accept other peoples beliefs.

No, it's you who don't seem to get the point. Why should I let people live in lies? Scientific truth is the real truth. Religion's "truth" is false truth, no matter how hard they believe in it, or no matter how hard I tried to support them and believe with them. You see, there is only one, single truth in realism. No other truths exist, no matter how hard you may argue against that.

Scientific truth is the real truth

While I believe that's true too, I still think people can follow a religion to become a better person. I'm an atheist but I have no problem with religious people. As long as it doesn't go "overboard".

I'm a proud Atheist and you're right Marpro, everyone should believe in what they want to.

Wow, that's exactly the thought that has gotten humans into the point they are today, which is idiocity.


You don't believe en religious freedom? Do you think everyone should be forced to trust mainstream sience without questioning it? Do you think all religions should be forebidden?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Religion is a lie that only causes trouble.

Religion might cause trouble but can also, as marpro pointed out, encurage people to make good deeds. A faith is also a nessecary part of human nature, to believe in a higher beeing gives pleasure and calmness, something much needed for todays stressed people.

Blind hate towards religion on the other hand only causes trouble.

If religion didn't exist, there would be no "blind hate" towards it. I don't give a crap about people encouraged to do good things. What the hell does that even give yourself? Absolutely nothing. Faith is not a necessary part of humans, it is something that we learned through ages, and can as easily forget as time passes.

That's like saying that there wouldn't be any racism if we killed all black people!

Good point. *Pulls out a shotgun*. We've got work to do.

Of course that's not the same thing. In case you haven't noticed, religion and black people aren't the same thing. People should really use less "examples" when complaining.

"Of course that's not the same thing. In case you haven't noticed, religion and black people aren't the same thing."

Then say why.

"I have proof!"
"It's true!"
"What you say is wrong!"
Right or not, none of that is any good unless you back it up with something.

I have proof. It's true. Religion is wrong. That's my back up.

You can't prove that religion is false. You can't prove that religion is true.
You can only believe.

Threfore it's pointless to argue.

No, we are their DNA manipulations.

Ahh, DNA manipulations! Now it all makes sense. =)

It's true that gods as depicted in the old testament (and other religious stories, but that's the only one I've read) sound like what we'd call aliens today. Ancient Egyptians even drew aliens! About the only thing that this crap proves is that whoever popularized modern UFO nuttism didn't exactly choose an original concept.

Speaking of aliens, NASA is going to make some announcement regarding the subject tomorrow. Probably something underwhelming, but still, it's something to look forward to.

Religion is a thing people later constructed after their ancestors tried to tell them what they saw. For example, take a look at the ancient wall-paintings and monuments. They have flying crafts in them. Some of them have people with wings, because the ancient people thought of a way to describe what they saw. And what they saw was more than most likely a flying craft. Chinese people speak of a man who came from inside a dragon's stomach. However, their dragons are way too similar to our space rockets are nowadays, with the fire spitting and all. They even knew of a star, which they said these gods came from, but that star cannot be seen by a naked human eye. They also created a sign about their gods, and it was later found out that it shows exactly the astronomical way this star (Sirius B) moves.

There, you wanted it, so there's about 2% of the proof I have for you. Also, about the DNA manipulations, it is proven that humans are already capable to do 90% of all these things, so it's not even far-fetched that an advantaged race who came from another planet, could have done this, unlike the religious views people have today. Those are far-fetched.

There's no proof in what you've said whatsoever, Skull. It's all assumption, conjecture and educated guesswork.

That's not truth.

I would like to see your source for this Sirius B information, however, as that sounds interesting.

Well, it's more than those religious fairytales, which give you no realistic point of view at all, nor proof. I could pretty much humiliate the religious beliefs with all my evidence, but I am not for my respect for these people here.

As for the Sirius, just search for mythology of the Dogon people. You'll find it soon enough. If you want to know more, just search for ancient astronauts or aliens and you'll eventually stump upon it.

More about Sirius, some even suspect that the Sirius star cluster is where all life comes from into this universe. Although I, myself, don't exactly believe in that, it may be a possibility.

&%#@$!! Awesome God of Gaming, lend me your powers so I can get that frickin' bandage on 1-10X in Super Meat Boy!!

That you are claiming you could "humiliate the religious beliefs" is insulting enough.

I asked for you to provide a source to one of your many "factual" claims. I don't want to go searching myself, because I want you to tell us where you found this information. On what substance are you basing your beliefs? "Go look for it on the internet" doesn't cut it, friend.

Your unwillingness to accept alternate views is arrogant and insulting. You hide your lack of tangible proof behind scientific rhetoric yet criticize thousand year old institutions of belief for not having a "realistic" view.

Religion is about faith. "Your" evidence is nothing but your own faith in an individual/groups own dogma.

Not dogma, sorry.

Your evidence is nothing but your own faith in an individual/groups statement of fact.

Edit: why bother..

Is it just me, or has this thread been completely derailed?

"Is it just me, or has this thread been completely derailed?"

Pedophiles, religion... You can't see the connection?

"Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Religion is a lie that only causes trouble."

Dictionary.com
re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

If we narrow this down, religion is simply your beliefs as to the creation of the big stuff.
'Evolutionism' (which I assume is what you believe in, Skull) is a religion, following the dictionary definition. So don't say religion is silly, because then I'll agree with you. In your case, it is silly.

"Pedophiles, religion... You can't see the connection?"

I hope you're not talking about those naughty priests in our catholic schools...

Oh we have plenty of those!

Hahaha Catholic priests...

You can only think scince is true if you seperate it from religion. "God works in his ways" should be our stock reply when we don't know an answer to a question. It's faith. Even if you disprove religion as much as you wwant, it's our belief. Also, seeing Skull is an athiest, he seems to be unusually cruel to Islam. WHat about other religions? With talk like that, you could go into politics. This thread may be derailed, but let's see if Fireball gets a double epic. This is an interesting discussionexcept the insults. Carry on.

EDIT: Many people confuse Islam with racism. In recism, people hate blacks or albinos. And people think in Islam we hate people with other religions. On of my best friends is black and a fellow of mine was a Christian two years ago.

Marpro said:

Edit: I realized that it isn't religion that starts war, it's people who can't accept other peoples beliefs.

If there is a religious difference between people conflicts tend to get much bigger. Religion very rarely causes conflicts, even the crusades were caused more by greedy rulers wishing to extend their power then by religion. But when these conflicts emerge evil people use religion to intensify the war by making people intolerant to other people's beliefs. You could see it in the crusades 900 years ago and in muslim terrorist organizations today.

You'd think that atheists would like to avoid religious violence. This thread is conclusive proof that that's clearly not always the case. Apparently atheists are prone to religious violence too.

I really suggest this getting moved to the Religion thread.

Whatever, I'll laugh to your face when religion grumbles into oblivion and when it finally has to face reality.

Whatever, I'll laugh to your face when religion grumbles into oblivion and when it finally has to face reality.

Explain this reality.

"You can only think science is true if you seperate it from religion. "God works in his ways" should be our stock reply when we don't know an answer to a question. It's faith."

Hmm I dunno about that. Maybe for you, but I don't think faith necessarily equals blind faith. Perhaps in Islam (or for you personally) that is the way but I know other religions can quite happily live with both.

You know reality yourself. I don't need to explain it to you. This "give me proof", that you guys are doing, is just a way to try and get my theories cornered into your narrow sighted ways. You know what I mean. Reality will always win over lies.

Heh, I thought that the basic theory of atheism does not require religion to ever face reality. Most religions however do require atheists to face reality at some point.

This "give me proof", that you guys are doing, is just a way to try and get my theories cornered into your narrow sighted ways

I haven't been asking for a proof in any of my posts. I'm simply asking if you can explain what you really mean instead of just saying "Religion is wrong, I am right. I have the proofs".

Reality is reality. There's not any other way to explain it.

I have 25 Picasso paintings in my safe. I keep them there because when I take them out I'm afraid some "professional" will think they're fake. At least I can now keep on saying I have 25 Picasso paintings without anybody denying it.

Theories are very much like paintings.

Painting is a sheet of paper or board that you paint pictures on with different colours. Theories are different ways to think in our brains. They are not the same thing, in case you didn't know. As I said, stop bringing "examples" into everything. That's what our ancestors did, and that is why we have our religions these days.

Quite an entertaining thread so far.

Although I found myself in a position defending religion and that's a bit odd since I couldn't care less about it. Must be the joy of arguing against Skull. =))

faith doesn't necessarily equal blind faith maybe in Islam ...
Our old Nanny taught us that. I agree a bit with Sparrow though. One person can say, " God will help me pass the exams." and will not study but he will obviously fail. One shouldn't put everything on God.

I did not bring up an example. I made a metaphor. The first part of my reasoning is analogous to your reasoning, the second part is to clarify that it is a metaphor. Because you seem to have missed this point, let me clarify it:

"25 Picasso paintings" is a metaphor for something valuable of which the value can only be examined under close inspection.
"The safe" is a metaphor for a place that nobody can reach, anything you do not show is in the safe so to speak.
"I keep them there because when I take them out I'm afraid some "professional" will think they're fake." is my interpretation of your statement that: "This "give me proof", that you guys are doing, is just a way to try and get my theories cornered into your narrow sighted ways."
"At least I can now keep on saying I have 25 Picasso paintings without anybody denying it." is what you are essentially doing using the aforementioned reasoning.

There's nothing wrong with keeping your Picasso paintings in the safe forever, but then please don't claim you have them. It makes you look silly.

And yes, that last part was a continuation of the metaphor.

I am not saying you can't say things without proving them, I am saying that you can hardly expect someone else to believe you without prove. Just saying "You know reality yourself." is trying to imply that everybody who does not see this is stupid. That's not an argument, that's a fallacy.

Well, everybody who does not see it, is pretty stupid to be honest.

Do you have a single good argument here or are you going to continue stating that people are idiots if they don't agree with you? It's like arguing with a 15 year old kid, which you probably are.

<sarcasm>Arguments? Who needs arguments anyway? Isn't it obvious that everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot?</sarcasm>

Science always wins over faith and religion. So the ones who take a religious point of view, cannot argue with scientific facts, but those who take a scientific point of view, are entitled to argue against religion.

Besides, I haven't heard a single "good argument" from you guys, either.

If you want good arguments, there is absolute evidence there are still extraterrestrial beings in space. In 1996, a meteor that came from Mars, or somewhere from that direction, had fossilised worms in it. In 1951, over Washington DC, millions of people saw a spacecraft arrive, battle with the military's jets, but they later just said "people were crazy to think that ever happened". And I suppose you guys haven't even heard of Battle of Los Angeles, where during WW2, they started shooting in the sky, at a glowing spacecraft. Three people died in the fire, and after the craft left over the sea, seven planes went after it, and shot it down into the water. Of course, the government denied this never happened. There's also life on Jupiter, living in the water under the ice.

There's some more proof.

Also Marpro, if I was a 15 year old kid I would take that as a compliment. For being half of your age and still knowing more than you do.

This is hilarious.

What if God created the aliens to test your faith, Skull?

I find the fact that you don't have the guts to show who you are, more hilarious.

God couldn't create aliens, because God doesn't exist. Simple as that.

Also Marpro, if I was a 15 year old kid I would take that as a compliment. For being half of your age and still knowing more than you do.

Based on your mathematic skills you're probably 5.

No, you're just older than you realize. Or at least so it would seem, judging by all those wrinkles around your face and that grumpiness.

*Looks in the mirror*

Noooooooooo...!

But really, I'm grumpy?!

Edit: Besides, I haven't heard a single "good argument" from you guys, either.

I've tried to tell you that some people find strenght and hope from their religion, even if a god doesn't exist, that is still a nice thing. Try to understand that, you thick Skull.

Yes, you're grumpy. But we also know you're Swedish and that you can't help it, so we accept it.

If you want good arguments, there is absolute evidence there are still extraterrestrial beings in space. In 1996, a meteor that came from Mars, or somewhere from that direction, had fossilised worms in it. In 1951, over Washington DC, millions of people saw a spacecraft arrive, battle with the military's jets, but they later just said "people were crazy to think that ever happened". And I suppose you guys haven't even heard of Battle of Los Angeles, where during WW2, they started shooting in the sky, at a glowing spacecraft. Three people died in the fire, and after the craft left over the sea, seven planes went after it, and shot it down into the water. Of course, the government denied this never happened. There's also life on Jupiter, living in the water under the ice.

All these are made up conspiracies so you Finns have something to be afraid of when you go to bed.

And I've read some about the "Battle of Los Angeles". I don't think it was aliens.

They're real. As real as your wrinkles.

anyone scientific point of view entitled to argue against religion
That's because you are one of them. SELF-ENTITLED!

No, I'm not self-entitled. I am entitled by science.

Tom cruise get out of the closet!

Can you smell what the Rock is cooking? -The Rock on his short-lived bakery outside Washington DC

Oh and that was hilarious ExDeath!

When you see a link that leads to YouTube, and that it is posted by ExDeathevn, you just know it's going to be lame.

What's up with your attitude towards ExD?

How did all that turn into religion?

And philosopher, you can't win arguments with insults.

Goodbye.

I think Philosopher is MsDink.
1. She has a religion too.
2. Anyone notice she don't take part in such discussions that make a fight?
3. She uses smileys.

Time to close this thread.

Never in a pig's whistle?

And philosopher, you can't win arguments with insults.

Didn't notice any insults..?

And no, I'm not that guy. =)

I'm not philosopher, but I've avoided this discussion myself as well.
(edit) Aside from that one post because I'm getting sick of seeing Skull complaining about religion, talking of science, and thought the link was slightly appropriate. Particularly considering the person in the video's own "belief".

Move it to another thread, at least - Even reading it alone is annoying when it takes a minute or two to fully extend the scroll bar.

Nope not me DD (seriously)

I seem to have an ability to start epic threads...

Yep Fireball you do. And Skull, please just do't say you have proof. Metatrasal was saying, he could tell everyone he had 25 Picasso paintings but he wouldn't show them to everyone, which is what you are doing. Even a moron can realize you're just claiming to have proof. You haven't shown us any. There was oonce a golden age when science and religion were interlinked.... But people seperated them so now look, there are World Wars all over.

But... you would be silly to not see that he is telling the truth!

/sarcasm

I have given you plenty of proof. Now it's time you give me some proof, for a change.

Fireball, you're a genius when it comes to create topics that involves raw politics or religion OR have a big chance to cross over to politic / religion. That's why the discussions goes on forever.

Didn't notice any insults..?

He insulted Skull.
If skull wants to believe in aliens, that's his own business. No one needs to start attacking anyone.

Somebody close this thread! How come flaming in a thread that was posted by me gets closed, but not a thread with flaming posted by anyone else?!

LOCK THIS THREAD!

He insulted Skull.
If skull wants to believe in aliens, that's his own business. No one needs to start attacking anyone.

Wow, hello there, buttlicker. If you didn't notice, another person got a bit insulted by the guy you're defending.

W/e. Maybe this thread deserves to be locked by now.

Dinkdoodler said:

Even a moron can realize you're just claiming to have proof.

Wongo said:

If skull wants to believe in aliens, that's his own business.

Aren't both of you doing the same thing now? Just attacking Skull because he has a certain opinion? Talking about each other in a decent manner should be the standard for everybody.

No. DOn't lock this. Never.

Talking about each other in a decent manner should be the standard for everybody.

Point taken. Imo, feel free to close this disaster.

Don't feed the trolls

Talking about each other in a decent manner should be the standard for everybody.

+1

I'M AM RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG AND EVERYONE EXCEPT ME IS AND IDIOT.

And idiot? Meaning you are right and an idiot?

Besides, I haven't heard a single "good argument" from you guys, either.

So skull needs a sparing partner...
How about me?

Woohoo! 200 post mark! *opens champaigne*

"This forum is for people to enjoy and exchange ideas, not to carry on a useless flame war. You don't live next door and have to interact with those you can't stand. Ignore them. You'll be happier. " - desertgrl (BEST QUOTE EVER)

Western society is altogether to harsh on some fantasies and then completely hypocritical about others. You might have a problem, or be struggling (what I am referring to here is the problem in the mind, not actual comittal of these crimes) with something you know to be morally wrong such as murder for the sake of blood-shed or paedophilia, but the moment you express your fantasies (fantasy does not necessarily equal good thing, let's make that clear) or obsessions to others you would be essentially criminalized; though thinking about a crime, even desiring to commit a crime is not a criminal offense, planning or conspiring - even documenting - a crime is likely to be a crime of its own. then actually comitting the crime is, well, a crime and that's where the heaviest penalty is incurred... unless the fbi get you first and lug you off to guantanamo bay (que David Hicks). The problem is that if the the victim of these fantasies expresses his concerns and seeks help he will likely be marginalised and even monitored outside of treatment/ counseling. Yet these folk will need to find treatment somewhere, lest the thoughts become actions. Our society (western)is missing a big problem, however - the ever prevalent hypocrisy. "Sexualised" products, music, movies etc are increasingly targeted at kids, to the point where "sexy factors" are being incorporated in cartoons and children's clothes. kids are looking at poor role models like j. bieber, katey perry, m. cyrus etc and they think sex is all innocent and cutesy and ok. I actually knew a couple of girls (13, 14 yo's) who thought it was funny to try to "seduce" male teachers at school. I believe they were expelled that year, but behold the problem at hand!

Beiber is a bad role model because he sounds like a realignment surgery gone wrong.

Anyway, western society is a double-edged sword, you get benefits such as modern healthcare, more food than we can eat, and many material goods, but it also has a lot of problems. What i think, though, is that no matter what your fantasies are (if any), as long as there is no will or desire to enact any seen as bad, then I have no problem with it. In Australia we have freedom of speech (they say) why can't we have freedom of thought?

well said. Though freedom of speech - well, just look at where that got Assange (wikileaks). And a good ol' quote from The Witcher, one of my faves: "Progress is like a herd of pigs. The herd brings many benefits, but no one should wonder at all the shoot." - Zoltan

woh...this is messed up
Watching pornography makes someone want to rape someone els?
Thats like saying playing Dink MAKES(in a way forces)someone to kill a duck
LOL

what bout drinking beer?

We don't kill ducks because we play Dink...

Well said, nigga.

Speak for yourself

What the phoock?!

Heeee, I rememeber that picture. She had others taken, right? I forgot where they are...

Yep there's another of her and a couple of Christiaan, too

They were for joshriot's contest and included in this.

Wow, hello there, buttlicker. If you didn't notice, another person got a bit insulted by the guy you're defending.

It seems everyone has insulted someone on this thread, so stop being an ass and man up. It doesn't matter who I defend, because there will be somebody who got insulted by him.