The Dink Network

Bible Study

November 7th 2011, 08:45 PM
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Check out this cool site: http://niv.scripturetext.com/genesis/1.htm

You can read the bible there, it has a lot of different translations of the bible (in English as well as many other languages), and even lengthy commentaries on every single passage (a lot of it rather biased and just trying to justify all the funky stuff Mr. JHVH says, but some of it is more objective and interesting too).

Everyone should read the bible, at least a little bit. Religious people because you should understand your own religion, anti-religious people so that you can better make fun of it, and unreligious people simply because it's interesting and a big part of western culture.

I belong somewhat in the second group, so I'll end by quoting this funny practical joke: =)
Genesis 11: 5-7 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
November 7th 2011, 10:42 PM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
Distraction thread for the win!!

Another thought: based on confuse their language so they will not understand each other., languages are still messed up. Doesn't anyone else notice when talking to each other on here (and I don't mean this thread = yet lol) with all the different cultures and religions and languages - that sometimes the perception of the receiver - messes with what you are actually trying to say, so people pick what you say up differently to how you meant it?

Languages change over time and what you learnt 5 or 10 years ago doesn't mean that language (eg English) stays static. There is always new words being added and new inferences. Great example of this is I learnt some German at school from a native German lady who lived there a long time before coming to NZ, yet when I visited Germany last year - words that I was taught as being in correct use, had changed and were no longer used in the same context.

Its also interesting how so many different religions all seem to have some of the same basics in them - just variations of the same thing/theme - is this still the same confusion going strong? Keep us fighting amongst ourselves instead of looking at the bigger picture?

November 8th 2011, 07:31 AM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
As English slowly takes over the world, we see international barriers crumble and the worlds' brightest minds can join forces to discover new wonders.

One of the more remarkable aspects of "The Holy Bible" are the ideals explored and the ways in which they ultimately failed or succeeded. This is even more important considering that the writer of the Pentateuch was not only a direct descendant of the influential Abraham (who arguably brought his knowledge of Babylo-Sumerian culture to Egypt) but also a highly educated noble, if not prince, of Egypt. Taking this into consideration, The Holy Bible will be a book of interesting if dubious history, escapades, antics and wisdom, at least throughout the Pentateuch.
We may then witness an entire civilisation built on the back of this manuscript - a civilisation that continues to thrive alongside its' brother-culture: "the sons of Ishmael."
Importantly, we can see how these events led up to the rise of Jesus of Nazareth, arguably the first socialist, if not anarchist, whose teachings and lifestyle provided a backbone (and often, a masquerade) for European and later on American society over the following centuries.
November 8th 2011, 07:40 AM
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Someone delete this piece of s#it.
Your wish was granted
Anyways, it's pretty much the same in Islam: God created the world in six days, just for an example.
November 8th 2011, 07:47 AM
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Godley
Peasant They/Them
 
@ DinkDoodler

Why do you always try to draw parallels between Islam and Christianity?
November 8th 2011, 07:48 AM
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Because there are.
There's nothing wrong with stating the obvious.
November 8th 2011, 08:36 AM
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metatarasal
Bard He/Him Netherlands
I object 
That's why Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all called 'Abrahamic religions'.

I didn't know that in Islam it was also believed that God created earth in six days though. That's new for me.
November 8th 2011, 02:15 PM
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darksign13
Peasant He/Him United States
Hungry, Horney, and Helpless... Take me home. 

Languages change over time and what you learnt 5 or 10 years ago doesn't mean that language (eg English) stays static. There is always new words being added and new inferences. Great example of this is I learnt some German at school from a native German lady who lived there a long time before coming to NZ, yet when I visited Germany last year - words that I was taught as being in correct use, had changed and were no longer used in the same context.


I have been told by Germans that this is especially bad in their language. They go through figures of speech like crud through a goose. Native Germans can leave the country for a couple of years then come back to find they can barely understand any one any more.
November 8th 2011, 03:58 PM
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KrisKnox
Peasant He/Him United States
The site's resident Therian (Dire Wolf, Dragon) 
There are also parallels in Greek mythos and Christan doctrine. One that comes clearly in mind is the Flood.
November 8th 2011, 09:08 PM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
More importantly, KrisKnox, are the parallels between Akkadian mythology and Jewish teachings (Gilgamesh epic <-> the Great Flood). Christian doctrine is predominantly expounded in the New Testament and tends to be contrary to Greek mythology, much like the great philosophers of the time (Plato, Socrates, Epicurus etc)
November 9th 2011, 03:37 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The first mistake in the Bible.

Let's go back in time a little bit. Ancient Gods include for example Zeus, Ares, Hera (Jupiter, Mars and Juno in Rome). Before there were for example Ra, Seth and Horus, and if we go even further there were the Annunaki. However, none of these religions, except in very few Egyptian texts, do they say that these Gods created all of existence. They many times say that they created humans though.

Now, our "modern God" came way after all of this. The Bible was written much later. However, if this happened later, then how come God created everything after that. It just simply doesn't match our history. God couldn't possibly create existence if it already existed before him, and we know it did because there are much earlier civilization that existed, which also depicted their own Gods, but not as we know the Christian God.

That's one of the main problems with the Bible and there are many more. And I can't believe even though all this information simply wrong in the Bible, is still taken literally and taken into religions even today.
November 9th 2011, 03:56 AM
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That doesn't make sense, Skull.

You're assuming that the Bible means that the world was created at that time, when it was written? It's saying what happened, obviously before it was written down.

You can't say that because civilisations existed before the Bible was written it proves that the Bible is wrong because it says God created the earth. He and/or the earth did not come into existence when the Bible was written.
November 9th 2011, 04:07 AM
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Godley
Peasant They/Them
 
@ DinkDoodler

All this making comparisons makes me feel you are insecure about your religion.

DuckHater, for instance doesnt do it.
November 9th 2011, 04:19 AM
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Felt wrong, then, didn't you? WRONG!
I state the obvious, sonny.
Anyway, Skull, that's the thing that makes God God. Human thinking cannot conceive the idea of a thing without a start or a finish. After all, Ibrahim preached about one God millions of years before Christ. So technically, the books about God were written later, but the idea was always there.
November 9th 2011, 04:27 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
That actually makes perfect sense. The Creation part of the Bible, I'm going as far as saying it's completely made up by humans. I'm not saying God didn't exist, but his first appearance in our history came much after various other religious beliefs, which doesn't make any sense according to the Bible, because there would have been existence before his appearance. This is just the Creation, not the rest. Most of the other stuff could very well be true. But not the Creation.

There is just so much wrong in it. The first one I've already stated; there was existence before he first came. He is also said to create existence in six days, even though days were made up by humans themselves and is based on astronomy, so there couldn't possibly be days before there was existence, because before existence there couldn't have been space nor humans, so there couldn't have been astronomy and anyone explaining astronomy. It also says God created all the modern animals right after he created Earth, but we know that can't be possible, because after Earth was created, there weren't lions and tigers and elephants, for example. Where did everything from inbetween go?! I could believe that maybe he came here at some point, and created modern animals, but not right after he created Earth. That would take out most of the stupid Creation. Really, it's the stupidest crap in the Bible.

The more you take everything in religions literally, and the more you try to explain them the "religious" or "magical" way, the more you will hit into a brick wall.
November 9th 2011, 04:32 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
It pays to read something before you try to dispute it he says lots of things about before he created the earth etc - if you look...
November 9th 2011, 04:33 AM
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Hey, now that's a bit harsh. I suppose it's OK to discuss religion, but it's not really nice to call it stupid crap. The time in which He made existence could be measured in human-days as six. This could also explain why holy books were written later. By that time, we did know of days, right? From that, it can also explain the other things you talked about.
Really though, let's keep this conversation neutral, please?
November 9th 2011, 04:42 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
Neutral is like females on the internet - neither can exist hehe
November 9th 2011, 05:34 AM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
Firstly, we need an English/history lesson on "God." The word "god" hails from the Germanic word "ghuto" which means "invoke." The reality is that "God" is the English/ Christian title for the Hebrew/ Jewish title Anglicised as "Yahweh" which basically means "the self-existent one." The Holy Bible (as it is based on the Jewish records) uses God or Lord in the place of Yahweh, Elohim (powerful being) and Adonai (the judge/ruler). It is important to notice that Elohim, Ba-al and Allah are quintessentially the same title, meaning "Master."

Now on to "The Creation." The belief is that God (Elohim, Allah, whatever you desire.), being self-existent, operates outside of the confines of time, space and whatever other dimension form the framework of our universe. The Holy Bible never says "and God said: let there be 360 days to year, 30 days to a month and 24 hours to the day." All it says is that "God allocated darkness to night and lightness to day." Later on (Genesis 1: 14&15), it is stated that God allocated the astral bodies patterns and cycles ("for signs and for seasons and for days and years.")

Now the proclamation that God didn't exist because Torah wasn't written before the Rigveda is equivalent to saying Woolly Mammoths didn't thousands of years ago, because they weren't documented thousands of years ago; A completely redundant argument.

"It also says God created all the modern animals right after he created Earth" Well, The Holy Bible nor the Koran never actually says that. Looks like you made that up, Skull

I agree that people take things too literally. I believe the creation story is less about the origin of humans then it is about the balance of the world.
November 9th 2011, 05:53 AM
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True.
I didn't contradict most of his stuff since I haven't read the whole Bible, so I thought maybe he's referring to the Bible and not the Koran. Which he was, for the most part
November 9th 2011, 05:56 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
Originally Gods didn't have anything to do with existence's creation. They were merely described as "beings from the sky" or "beings from the stars". Some sources say they created humans, which is very well possible. But nothing even refers to that they created all of the world. People couldn't understand these people, so they thought they were some sort of magical beings, and the story grew and grew. And it is going to keep growing, which is a shame. The Bible originally says "Gods" but it was later changed into "God" to avoid contorversy against churches. It is sad that nowadays when you say God, people automatically think of a being that sees everything, can do everything etc. That's not "God". That's life.

Well, The Holy Bible nor the Koran never actually says that. Looks like you made that up, Skull

Actually, it isn't directly said in the Bible, but it does refer on quite a many occasions what animals live in the Paradise.

I think it's safe to say the Creation is made up by humans. I believe it is merely a fairytale added on top of the real story afterwards. We know it isn't possible, by any means, because science has proven our history otherwise. Those who claim it's true would be similar to people who in 4000 years from now would claim that Nazguls from Lord of the Rings were real, even though they could very well prove they were not. People should use common sense instead of allowing themselves to be brainwashed by our society, which is too scared to let go of our past ways.
November 9th 2011, 09:27 AM
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"I'm not saying God didn't exist, but his first appearance in our history came much after various other religious beliefs, which doesn't make any sense according to the Bible, because there would have been existence before his appearance."

Who said He didn't exist before being documented?
The first appearance in our history being the Bible? That would make the first appearance either before Creation, or failing that, probably Abraham, who was the first to recognise God properly I suppose (after Adam, Noah etc). Or maybe you mean Moses, who wrote it down. None of which mean God didn't exist beforehand.

"He is also said to create existence in six days, even though days were made up by humans themselves and is based on astronomy, so there couldn't possibly be days before there was existence, because before existence there couldn't have been space nor humans"

Well if He created existence, He created time at the same moment, no? Time doesn't need humans to exist.

"... because after Earth was created, there weren't lions and tigers and elephants, for example."

What? Of course there were, if you believe in Creation. You can't bring a proof against one belief from another belief. It's like saying "Creation is wrong, because Evolution is right". Whatever the facts are, the argument is completely flawed
November 9th 2011, 09:50 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
Well if He created existence, He created time at the same moment, no? Time doesn't need humans to exist.

Actually, you're wrong there. Time is made up by humans. Just like days, weeks, months and years. Time is a huge mathematical formula made up by humans, to help us understand the order of movement.

What? Of course there were, if you believe in Creation. You can't bring a proof against one belief from another belief. It's like saying "Creation is wrong, because Evolution is right". Whatever the facts are, the argument is completely flawed

Have you even read the Bible. Or did you read some odd version where God created Dinosaurs? I don't remember seeing that anywhere. The point is, God creates existence and Earth, then he instantly places humans and the nowaday animals on Earth. We all know there were other animals before the ones that exist now, so that part in the Bible is total bullcrap. Why? Because the person who first made that up and wrote that, didn't know about all the life that existed before humans, that's why.

The overall blindess of people about this pisses me off so much. You would see the faults in religions if you wanted to, and you do see them. The problem is you don't want to see them, and then lie to others and yourselves. I'm not saying everything, such as the teachings that religions follow, are wrong and never happened. I'm just saying that somethings are just obviously wrong in religions and that the common idea of an old guy sitting on a cloud and deciding everything is just plain absurd. Maybe not in the medieval times, but it is now.
November 9th 2011, 10:01 AM
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"Actually, you're wrong there. Time is made up by humans."

Well that's a whole discussion in itself isn't it.
Are you saying that without a human there to say "hey this revolution of the Earth is called a 'day'" then the Earth never actually span around the sun at all? C'mon, you know what I mean.

"The point is, God creates existence and Earth, then he instantly places humans and the nowaday animals on Earth. We all know there were other animals before the ones that exist now, so that part in the Bible is total bullcrap."

Millions of intelligent people believe in that. If it was incontrovertible proof, then it would be seen in the same light as people who believe the Earth is flat.

Here's one simple way of explaining it if you believe Creation (there's others of course) :
God created trees and animals. He didn't create spores, seeds, bacteria or whatever, but fully grown trees and creatures. If you cut one of those trees down you could count the rings in the trunk... In the same way, perhaps He created dinosaur skeletons inside the earth and made them seem older than they really are?

Call it fiction if you like, but it's nowhere near as straightforward as you seem to think.
November 9th 2011, 10:13 AM
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Kyle
Peasant He/Him Belgium
 
Sparrow, you're really reaching for straws there to defend that argument

It is ignorant to deny the science behind existance. If you really want to defend a belief in God then just say he created the universe and all the physical and metaphysical rules. From there, he let it run its course. Because that's the only thing science still can't 100% explain, "what came before the Big Bang".

And then just accept the Bible was written to help the people of that time through some really awful times and later misused as a tool to control people.
November 9th 2011, 10:17 AM
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Quiztis
Peasant He/Him Sweden bloop
Life? What's that? Can I download it?! 
Yeh, sum chap wrote the bible/koran whatev a long time ago and since people didn't know science back then, lots of people today are trolled/controlled for life.
November 9th 2011, 10:18 AM
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"Sparrow, you're really reaching for straws there to defend that argument "

Granted
Was only an example though. I can see how arguments are flawed but am no good at arguing well myself, it's kinda annoying

"It is ignorant to deny the science behind existance."
Agreed. But the rules of science don't preclude creation.

"And then just accept the Bible was written to help the people of that time through some really awful times and later misused as a tool to control people."

Which doesn't explain why so many people believe nowadays. Not that many people can be so deluded, surely. My main point is: it's not so simple as all that.
November 9th 2011, 10:21 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
You know, if religion hadn't existed for so long, at this point you would have been locked in a mental hospital. It would be just easy for you to admit the Creation is wrong at this point, rather than make yourself look even dumber just making explanations as you go.

Millions of intelligent people believe in that. If it was incontrovertible proof, then it would be seen in the same light as people who believe the Earth is flat.

And remember what happened to the "fact" that Earth is flat? I think you just kinda talked yourself in a corner there. Religion caused people to LIE that the Earth was flat. Science proved it otherwise. The same will happen to the Creation theory one day. In fact, it has already happened. Science has proven it wrong, but religious people take their religions too far and not even facing the proof will they accept facts. Some people even still believe the Earth is flat, only because of their religions.

Call it fiction if you like, but it's nowhere near as straightforward as you seem to think.

It is straightforward. Religion has just messed up peoples' heads so bad that they see things that aren't there, and completely disregard facts, cause they're too afraid they have been wrong all this time.

I have given you plenty of proof. I'll consider that the Creation is true if you give me the smallest of evidence that I can't explain otherwise. I know you can explain my proof otherwise too, but the difference is you're making things up while I'm sticking with facts.
November 9th 2011, 10:31 AM
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Now, now.

And remember what happened to the "fact" that Earth is flat? I think you just kinda talked yourself in a corner there.

Heh, yeah maybe

Religion caused people to LIE that the Earth was flat. Science proved it otherwise.

People THOUGHT that the Earth was flat, AFAIK religion didn't tell them to think that. Thinking/believing something and then being proved wrong does not mean you were lying in the first place.

It is straightforward. Religion has just messed up peoples' heads so bad that they see things that aren't there, and completely disregard facts, cause they're too afraid they have been wrong all this time.

I have given you plenty of proof. I'll consider that the Creation is true if you give me the smallest of evidence that I can't explain otherwise. I know you can explain my proof otherwise too, but the difference is you're making things up while I'm sticking with facts.


I'm not trying to prove that Creation is true. I'm trying (and failing ) to point out to you the huge flaws in what you're saying, which basically boils down to "religion is wrong because science is true".

And as for "the difference is you're making things up while I'm sticking with facts" well that's just silly. My example maybe, but not the argument as a whole.
November 9th 2011, 10:43 AM
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Marpro
Peasant He/Him bloop
 
Universe theorycrafting. Awesome.
November 9th 2011, 11:03 AM
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DinkDude95
Peasant He/Him Australia
The guy with the cute D-Mod. 
Hey Skull, you should read your bible.

It'll scare the hell out of you.
November 9th 2011, 11:44 AM
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Kyle
Peasant He/Him Belgium
 
Which doesn't explain why so many people believe nowadays. Not that many people can be so deluded, surely.

An entire country, who thought they were isolated, believed in the same religion once. I'm talking about Japan and the Shinto religion. That's 100% of their population who believed that, even when western people started to arrive at their shores with plenty of evidence and even another religion to prove them wrong. The same example can be applied to so many other religions through time. Most of these religions have disappeared or have been absorbed.

The reason the main religions of today aren't disappearing is because religion as a whole has become a "don't touch this" subject. They're basically competing for the right to be correct. When scientists try to prove them wrong, believers and religious leaders answer by saying "Not your place to question us". It's simply a case of not wanting to accept science. It's a matter of the human mind, not a battle of facts versus ideas/scriptures.

In my opinion, there is a place for religion on a spiritual level. I'm totally not religious, but I find myself "praying" for a family member to get through surgery alive and such. I don't pray to the god of any religion, it's just the experience of a basic need mankind has had since evolving into clever beings. At its core, religion is probably an expression of hope or despair. There was no need to write books detailing the whole process of creation or whatever. People prayed or tried to appease "gods" since before writing was introduced.
November 9th 2011, 12:11 PM
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Duckhater
Peasant He/Him India
From The Depths Of Tartarus Itself 
Okay,I didn't read the whole debate.But let me say this.Islam almost completely agree's with the evolution theory.As in,the theory that things could change after a long time or in accordance with their surroundings.Just not the part where ''stuff'' just suddenly came alive and that the first beings were microbes.Our belief is that God made them and gave them that ability.This was long before Darwin.If you've read up on islamic empires,you'd know that they were very scientific people.
November 9th 2011, 12:28 PM
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Evolution is the wrong word, DuckHater. Islam doesn't accept the theory of evolution, for example that apes make humans. It accepts adaption i.e change in animals so the environment favours them.
Not really liking the outright snaps at religion here, they're less discussions more flaming.
November 9th 2011, 01:17 PM
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Kyle
Peasant He/Him Belgium
 
I actually think it's been very reasonable and polite DD, compared to usually when it concerns this topic And I'm definitely interested in input from our Islamic members, because I know so very little about it.
November 9th 2011, 01:31 PM
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Yeah, Kyle. You're right, I s'pose.
I think the best thing about religion is the way it helps us when we're despaired because we believe that God will help us through, and that even if there is evil, there is God and good forces.
November 9th 2011, 02:17 PM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
People THOUGHT that the Earth was flat, AFAIK religion didn't tell them to think that. Thinking/believing something and then being proved wrong does not mean you were lying in the first place.

I'm sorry. I explained myself badly there. What I meant was that religion was lying to people. And there's no point in denying that. People knew, for example, that the Earth was round before religion changed this. Someone must have started the "world is flat" idea, and he was therefor lying, claiming it as a fact.

I'm not trying to prove that Creation is true. I'm trying (and failing ) to point out to you the huge flaws in what you're saying, which basically boils down to "religion is wrong because science is true".

I really don't have flaws in what I said. At least that I know. Everything I have pointed out has been scientifically proven. It's in fact the Bible that has flaws in it. I never said "religion is wrong because science is right". In fact, I believe in most stuff in religions. I just change it into a more scientific point of view. In my opinion some scientists try to prove religion wrong too much, and vice versa, when people should try to combine these things. I think people are allowed to believe in religious things that science hasn't proven otherwise, but I also think that religions should admit their mistakes, when proven wrong by science. Things in religions that can be confirmed by science are the only ones that should be thought as the "absolute truth".
November 9th 2011, 08:09 PM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
...why should we believe science - as I have said in the past -

what about Carbon Dating. How do we know that these scientists actually have dated things correctly. Yet they proudly state when an item was alive, what era it came from and so on as a "proven fact"! To do that, they are guessing what the atmosphere was like between now and then, they are assuming the ratios that they measure are static, but, in actuality, these could have fluctuated significantly over relatively short periods of time (that they are totally unaware of) and that could throw their calculations off by years yet they state it as fact with no first hand knowledge or (for me) a viable method of proving its accuracy beyond any doubt, with the exception of BECAUSE THEY SAID SO. Think I have more faith in God than in Man over this! here

Things in religions that can be confirmed by science are the only ones that should be thought as the "absolute truth".

In instances like these scientists base their "proof" on what they agree is proof not that which they have seen with their own eyes... they haven't proven it to me yet and can't because they weren't there then, there fore anything they say is basically conjecture and none is proven FACT nor can it ever be!
November 9th 2011, 10:42 PM
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It's in fact the Bible that has flaws in it.

This is true for any remotely impartial observer... It's impossible to prove to someone who fervously insists it's the truth, though. Furthermore the meanings in the bible get twisted every which way, depending on what suits the reader. The bad part is that this is somewhat justifiable (since the bible was written long ago, in a language that's not alive anymore).

For example, I personally find the most glaring mistake in the bible's creation story to be that the writers at the time obviously believed in the fishbowl theory, and so god created an expanse called sky to separate the waters above the expanse from the waters below the expanse.[1] Those who insist the bible is factful take this to mean waters in the clouds and waters on the earth.

I'm totally not religious, but I find myself "praying" for a family member to get through surgery alive and such. I don't pray to the god of any religion, it's just the experience of a basic need mankind has had since evolving into clever beings.

Same here. Thinking about it logically, it's obvious to me that religion is bogus, but on an instinctual level, I can't help but feel that things are "fated" to happen sometimes. I think being a believer boils down to embracing those gut feelings without thinking critically about it. Jesus even says so: Blessed are the ignorant who believe without needing proof.[2]

So in essence, being religious in this day and age (where no tangible proof of god exists) is all about embracing ignorance.
November 10th 2011, 12:24 AM
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Embrace ignorance
I would like to dispute that.
From the Koran and the Bukhari (sayings of the Holy Prophet SAW):
Can the ignorant ever be equal to the knowledgeable?
Seek knowledge even if you have to travel to China
(this was back when transport was difficult and from Egypt to China it took many months)
And Allah makes high in rank those who are faithful and those who gain knowledge.
If a student dies while seeking knowledge, he is a martyr.
Knowledge is light.
Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave.
Education is compulsory for every Muslim man and woman.

Aside from that, the first revealed word of the Koran was 'read' and Hazrat Muhammad SAW raised the degree of learning higher than prayer.
So no, not ignorance. Muslims were the leading scientists back some centuries:
Ibn-ul-Haethm.
Yaqoob Al-kundi.
Dr Abdus Salam (recent).
Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan (recent).
Jabir bin Hayan (father of chemistry, he called)
Alchemy, Aqua Regia, sulphuric acid and nitric acid are the discoveries of Muslim scientists.
So, in these ways, religion isn't about ignorance, as in flicking science away.
November 10th 2011, 12:46 AM
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yeoldetoast
Peasant They/Them Australia
LOOK UPON MY DEFORMED FACE! 
Oh look, it's one of these threads again.
November 10th 2011, 12:46 AM
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I was addressing the point of ignorance back there.
Now: Blessed are the ignorant who believe without needing proof.
From the name we know him by, Jesus didn't say that.
For Muslims, at least, Koran is the proof. Since I can't remember the exact English translation, I'd rather not write it, but the gist is that God created animals and beautiful things so we can ponder over Who created them.
Also, as we Muslims know it, Musa/Moses repeatedly asked God to show Himself, so God asked him to look at a hill near the mountain where Musa talked to God. When God did show Himself, the hill became blackened and Musa lost conciousness. Another time, 40 people wanted to see God and came with Musa to the mountain, they died when God revealed His light. (He returned them to life)
The Arab non-believers teased Hazrat Muhammad SAW and said the Koran was written by a human, so God issued them a challenge to write a surah in Arabic that was at the level at the Koran. No one could.
Poets in Arabia used to have an annual contest. They would write poetry and stick it on the wall of the Ka'aba. Hazrat Ali RA copied a surah from the Koran and stuck it there, and the poets agreed that no human could write on such as it.
That's for Muslims
November 10th 2011, 12:48 AM
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synbi
Peasant He/Him Finland
 
"The Bible originally says "Gods" but it was later changed into "God" to avoid contorversy against churches."

Skull, the bible states clearly there's only one God, the God of Israel. Here's a few references from Old Testament:

Isaiah 37:11 "O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth."

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."



"It is sad that nowadays when you say God, people automatically think of a being that sees everything, can do everything etc. That's not "God". That's life."

Life is God. That's what the bible is all about - praise the life you are given, because God is just a word for everything you call life. God isn't some old man that sits on a cloud somewhere... The bible is pretty much a book of stories by different authors that try to teach how to life a good life, but sadly, as much good as there is in that book, it has been shamelessly used to take advantage and control people throughout history, no doubt about that.
November 10th 2011, 01:38 AM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
The whole Gods vs God debate rises from the time when the mainstream Christian church (the church of Rome, later, the Roman Catholic Church) declared Arians heretics and annihilated them as pagans - scary to think I would have been murdered for believing that God created Jesus 1500 years ago. As an Arian, I will claim that the "gods" of the Creation tale are Jehovah (aka Allah) and Jesus (a being which he tore from his own "flesh"; Kabbalists teach that this is Adam); of course, non-Arians and especially Monotheists avoid this reference.

R
egarding the "flat earth": Check my spiel here - should relieve your disillusions.

Regarding Skulls invention about God creating all modern animals in creation:

Let's actually read the bloody thing before making sh!t up about it: " 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
"

Now, how do you get "God didn't make dinosaurs, but he did make German Shepherds and American Pitbull Terriers" from that? I sure don't!
November 10th 2011, 01:40 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
Let's actually read the bloody thing before making sh!it up about it

High 5 schnapps - LOVE it!!
November 10th 2011, 01:44 AM
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Quick question: Which religion is about Jehovah?
November 10th 2011, 01:45 AM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
Thanks Missy High-5. Nice italics work btw I hope people actually read it - I'm out for the truth, not for a flame-sesh.

@DD: Traditionally, Judaism. Christianity by extension. Jehovah's Witnesses by literality.
November 10th 2011, 01:48 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
yus I slipped there (all fixed) and would be nice of peeps read it - url in the opening post up there makes it way easy huh
November 10th 2011, 02:41 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
Thinking about it logically, it's obvious to me that religion is bogus, but on an instinctual level, I can't help but feel that things are "fated" to happen sometimes.

Once again, I would call that life. Gods have nothing to do with life. This is where belief steps in. Every human being needs something to believe in, such as in what's their purpose in here. Synbi said "life is God". That's the biggest mistake in humans have made during their history, and I never understood how they managed to mix those two together so tightly, that it is still the common belief.

Skull, the bible states clearly there's only one God, the God of Israel. Here's a few references from Old Testament:

Originally the Bible spoke of Gods. But religion had already stepped in and to avoid contorversy, they changed it. They constantly change the Bible over and over again, because new mistakes considering multiple Gods keep popping up. And they change other things in it too. During my lifetime, they have changed the Bible's texts over 120 times. The last change in the Bible, was to remove the word "booty", because it has double meaning. Now, if they're willing to change small ridiculous thing like that, then think about how important it was to change "God" into "Gods" back then when religion was much more important. Btw, there are still some mistakes they haven't noticed to change. The easiest to remember is "Let Us make man in Our image". Some say this means the Holy Trinity, but the Holy Trinity is nothing but a bunch of lies, made up to cover true facts.

Now, how do you get "God didn't make dinosaurs, but he did make German Shepherds and American Pitbull Terriers" from that? I sure don't!

Please do some research before actually discussing this. There are numerous versions of the Bible. Plus, there are unrelated books which depict some of the same things that are in the Bible. Some of them clearly state what animals lived in the Paradise. It also says there's a snake in the Garden, which means it could have been during the dinosaurs, but I doubt the dinosaurs would have gone unmentioned in all the texts. Plus, we know humans came after dinosaurs. However, in the Bible, God immediately places humans on Earth, which means dinosaurs couldn't have existed, because they lived before us, which also means there had to be modern animals in there.
November 10th 2011, 03:47 AM
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Not much time now (will come back to this later!) but about this:

"The last change in the Bible, was to remove the word "booty", because it has double meaning. Now, if they're willing to change small ridiculous thing like that, then think about how important it was to change "God" into "Gods" back then when religion was much more important."

A) English is not the original language of the Bible. The meaning of the word booty in English may have changed over the years, so it has to be translated slightly differently perhaps to get across the same meaning.

B) Gods is still plural in the Hebrew texts.
November 10th 2011, 03:51 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
A) English is not the original language of the Bible. The meaning of the word booty in English may have changed over the years, so it has to be translated slightly differently perhaps to get across the same meaning.

Not my point. If even today, they are prepared to change something so minor as a double meaning, in the Bible itself, then what makes you think they wouldn't have changed the word "God" into "Gods", for a much greater purpose?
November 10th 2011, 03:54 AM
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High speed before I run away to work: link
November 10th 2011, 04:41 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
Gods possibly relates to the Trinity - Hebrew also doesn't translate too well into English a lot of the feeling and meaning behind the words is lost simply because we don't have the equivalent
November 10th 2011, 06:00 AM
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Kyle
Peasant He/Him Belgium
 
...why should we believe science - as I have said in the past -

MsDink, this is basically just you not being a scientist You're speaking about scientific matters as if they are guesses by the scientists and if they all guess the same thing it becomes fact. This is not how science works AT ALL. There are clear rules and methodologies before something is proven as fact. In your example of carbon dating, the remains that have been found not only match the scientific research and postulations, but also conform to history as proven by recovered documents and ancient writing. Are you saying those can also not be seen as a fact because they could have been secretly made up?

And I agree with Skull's assessment of the dinosaur problem. Man came after dinosaur, yet man was supposedly created together with the animals. So there's a huge issue right there, no matter how you look at it.
November 10th 2011, 06:05 AM
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Really? Nowhere in the Koran it is said that God created animals and humans at the same time.
November 10th 2011, 06:15 AM
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MsDink
Peasant She/Her New Zealand
Tag - Umm.. tag, you're it? 
No I have seen where they carbon dated stuff only to find out they were hundreds of years out when re doing it - so is either date correct? How can you ever prove that it IS correct - its just not possible unless someone invents a time machine - if they do I want a purple one
November 10th 2011, 06:44 AM
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Kyle
Peasant He/Him Belgium
 
DD, I was talking about the bible, however you also stated:

God created the world in six days, just for an example.

So in those six days everything must have been created, animals and humans alike. But not dinosaurs who lived looooong before
November 10th 2011, 07:36 AM
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I see
That was the world, no mention of animals.
Some creep up on their bellies, others walk on two legs, others on four. Allah creates what He pleases.
Now, from this we can deduce that
Some creep up on their bellies like snakes.
others walk on two legs this could be humans, but it could be the Tyrannosaurus Rex as well.
My Islamiat teacher is coming back today, I'll ask him about this
November 10th 2011, 10:00 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
I think people should just accept that certain things in their religions are made up by humans. Science has proven that. Also, some things aren't to be taken literally.
November 10th 2011, 10:10 AM
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synbi
Peasant He/Him Finland
 
Skull:

There's a funny story in the 1st Book of Kings where Elijah mocks Baal's prophets for being unable to provide any evidence for the existance of their "god". It's a long quote, I'm referring to Kings 1 chapter 18, verses 20-39 Link here.

Old Testament speaks of different gods, of course, every nation had its own gods to bow to. But they are man-made gods. In Kings 2 chapters 18-19, Hiskia (the King of Israel around that time) asks God for help to defend Israel against assyrians that invaded Judah.

The king of Assyria says:

Kings 1, 18:33-34 - "Has the god of any nation ever delivered his land from the hand of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena and Ivvah? Have they rescued Samaria from my hand? Who of all the gods of these countries has been able to save his land from me? How then can the Lord deliver Jerusalem from my hand?”

Hiskia says:

Kings 1, 19:17-19 - “It is true, O Lord, that the Assyrian kings have laid waste these nations and their lands. They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men’s hands. Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O Lord, are God.”

Bible is a beautiful book to read, no matter if anybody happens to believe in its message or not, to me that makes no difference. It's wonderfully written. If anybody likes to learn about history - to learn why there's so many people still in today's world that take this ages-old book so passionately and seriously - those kind of people will be doing themselves a disservice by ignoring it. It's a story worth getting familiar with.
November 10th 2011, 10:24 AM
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Skull
Peasant He/Him Finland bloop
A Disembodied Sod 
Yes, but it annoys me that people are blinded by their religions and can't accept facts. I would understand this if there was no proof, but science has provided plenty of proof. People must face it at one point or another, some things in religions and in the Bible, for example, are made up by human beings.

Don't get me wrong. As I said, most stuff there is most likely true. I believe in things found in religions. The difference is, that I sit down, and think "How could that have been possible?". And usually I'll find a scientifical explanation. If I don't find a scientifical explanation, I might consider it true. If there's something science has proven entirely wrong, then I think it's wrong, and it is wrong, no matter what I think.

Some things in religions are obviously wrong. Same applies to science. But science has facts, while religions don't. That's why we should always look at science when we're talking about religions, but not necessarily look at religions when we're talking about science.
November 10th 2011, 10:31 PM
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schnapper
Peasant He/Him Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die. 
To use Skull's metaphor: Is TLOTR a literary masterpiece? Yes. Is it based on things that happened? Yes. Is it a fantasy/ fiction? Yes. Can valuable lessons be learned from it? Yes.