The Dink Network

I am an experience C++ programmer and I am beginning development of a cross platform editor using the fox toolkit. And I COULD USE SOME HELP! I use Ubuntu Linux, so I could use some Windows and Mac testers, as well as testers from other kinds of Linux, or BSD systems. I will be watching this post as well as my personal messages for replies. I will also be posting this on sourceforge.net.

I have decided to call it the Unidink Editor. I feel this expresses the desired outcome of the project.

JOIN ME! and lets make the definitive cross platform editor that puts all others to shame.

Cool idea - what are we programming, what's the battle action plan?

Well "planning" is still open at this point, but here's what I have thought up so far: we'll use the fox toolkit because its easy to use, object oriented, and supports cross platform compilation natively. I've already got a project set up on sorceforge.net, so we can use there svn, etc. Other than that, I'm still thinking and researching (the idea to do this kind of came to me suddenly yesterday, so I jumped on it without a whole lot of forethought). The door is still open for ideas at this point, if you have any.

Um.. I'm completely out of the picture here, which is why I didn't reply sooner. Are we supposed to be programming a game editor, or something?

Yes, that's the idea. All the D-Mod editors up to this point have been Windows specific. What we want to do is write an editor that works on ALL operating systems (Windows, Linux, Mac, BSD, etc...). We want to let EVERYONE write good D-Mods. Currently only Windows has fully functional editors. There is a basic editor for Linux called freedinkedit, but it BLOWS! It doesn't even have enough features to write a halfway decent D-Mod. That's why we want to make a cross platform editor, so we can all write good D-Mods.

I can't help with it, but it's a good idea!

Thank you. Believe it or not, just your support helps. It tells us our project is wanted, and therefore worth finishing. It gives us the motivation to keep going and get through whatever problems we encounter.

If you would like to help in other ways, we will need beta testers later on. No mater what system you use, I know we will need more testers for it.

Are you interested in making it better than WinDinkEdit or are you just trying to copy its features to an open source project?

Also, GameHampe is making a new one, not sure if it's Windows specific or anything.

I thought GameHampe's editor was aimed to work on all systems.

The primary purpose is just to make an open source, cross platform editor. So just copying the features of WinDinkEdit would be enough. I would, however, eventually like to add more features, and try to surpass WinDinkEdit. Maybe even make the Unidink "the" go to editor.

I know of GameHampe's project, and I also know it's written in Java. Now I don't know about everyone else, but personally I find Java programs too slow. Especially when they start to get more features and get bigger.

The Unidink Editor will be written in C++, and therefore should be exponentially faster.

How about joining forces with GameHampe to create one massive editor? It would be much more rewarding than "competing" with him.

Some other Dinkers who I'd suggest asking help from would be Beuc, Rabidwolf9, Iplaydink, Robj and maybe even contact an old timer Gary Hertel. Gary hasn't been around in 10 long years but from what I know about him, he created WinDinkEdit and might be interested in helping with your project.

I was going to answer that I am a C++ programmer, not a Java programmer, and that therefore I couldn't join forces with GameHampe. A thought just occurred to me, however: I remember hearing of a library that allowed the joining of Java and C++. Hmmmm... I need to look into this.

You see, if I can find this library, I might just be able to use C++ to speed up the slow parts of the editor. It would eliminate my problems with his project, and allow the project as a hole to be done quicker since there would be another programmer on it.

I'll talk with GameHampe and see. This might just work out.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

I sense something big coming.

I hope so

A new editor with new features and potential scripting integration would be the next step in d-modding.

I could help with testing on Mac!

I also have a basic understanding of C++ so I'd like to look at code, doubt that I can contribute much to it though as I don't have that much experience programming in it..

Later in the process I could do graphical stuff too, like desktop ikon, splash screen, and things like that.

Good luck, pm if you want my help, I really want to see this finished! A new (and cross-platform) editor is badly needed!

Sorry to be a naysayer but you'll probably get bored and stop making it halfway through. Most people on this board wouldn't know a debugger from their anus meaning that you're basically on your own.

The most recent editor developments (handjob and LinDinkEdit) have both stalled without any promising future.

Free/DinkEdit is actually the most stable editor there is. The original game, plus Cloud Castle, Mayhem and many other games were all made using it. I don't know where you got your rather scathing judgement from.

And you know why all these ideas have stopped halfway through. Because of posts like that.

We already have a cross-platform editor, it's called FreeDinkEdit. The lack of editors is not our problem, if we have a problem at all. What we need is Dink Smallwood 2 for the years to come.

There is a Dink Smallwood 2. >_>

That's what I thought, but we don't.

*coff*Mystery Island*coff*

As I said, that's what I thought, but we don't.

In spite of all the down beat posts, I WILL finish this editor. I've had a talk with GameHampe and he doesn't think it worth the effort to combine Java and C++. He is willing, however, to offer a little help in translating usable parts of his code in to C++. So I will press on and try to finish this editor.

As to yeoldtoast's post: I'll agree, my judgement went a little to the harsh side, but I had been messing with freedinkedit all day and was getting annoyed with it. So here, in a nut shell, are my complaints with it:

* I have to spend way to much time trying to get to a specific map or tile thanks to the directional keys over shooting.

* The hardness is very difficult to set, especially for large, odd shaped entities like buildings.

* Navigating tile and entity pallets is very difficult and counter-intuitive. Also, same problem with overshooting as stated above.

* Having to pick up an entity to check or change its settings usually results in moving it slightly, which means small misalignments that go unnoticed until inconvenient times, or a least result in annoying time spent trying to realign. This is especially aggravating if you have to do it to the same entity many times.

And to Simeon: Yes, I agree a Dink Smallwood 2 would be nice, but to really make it worth while it would have to be completely updated and modernised. That means true 3D graphics, more intelligent and articulate entities, and the complete rewriting or replacement of dinkC (dinkC++ ?). And more features I just can't think of right now.

However, since it has been brought up, we'll put it to a vote.

I will post a board if I get say 60% positive feedback, at least 3 other C++ programmers who will join the project, and a couple of good 3D graphic artists willing to join, I will start the project. Short of that, it will be impractical.

In spite of all the down beat posts, I WILL finish this editor.

How dare you be so chipper and motivated! Dinkers are supposed to be lazy!

Just kidding, I'm glad you're not letting people get you down. Maybe your energy will motivate some of us lazy bums.

3D graphics would make it very difficult for D-Mods author to create new graphics. You would have to rely on 3D models under a free license as it's difficult to create something convincing yourself. Also, the design of 3D environments is more difficult than 2D. It can be done but I predict most D-Mods would look like most FPS maps: good layout but average graphics.

I think 3D graphics would be a horrible idea for the aforementioned reason as well. More detailed 2D, 32 bit color graphics however should be enough to make it look good while still supporting amateur level graphics (or ripped from somewhere).

If we could progress the engine to a Throne of Bhaal standard, it could work; we could incorporate weather, even sky effects without switching to full 3D. I think that we really need to focus on A.) customizable map size ie: 1800x1800 etc B.) suspended, stackable maps might be fun C.) Paralax scrolling. These things would open up many oportunities for Dink Smallwood.

Unfortunately, with Power comes Complexity.

A program that combines RPG Maker and Dink would be pretty dang epic!

Support for alpha channel and higher resolution per map square is the only thing a dink 2 need

I believe DinkHD already supports the 32 bit bitmap transparancy channel.

Just kidding, I'm glad you're not letting people get you down. Maybe your energy will motivate some of us lazy bums.

That is true of most open source programmers and mod makers of all kinds. I just enjoy putting such slackers to shame. With most of the above, there philosophy is: I'll get it done when I get it done, so it never is. I try to use a "the boss is riding my a**" philosophy, namely: I want it done, now! Things actually get done when you change your outlook.

Also: I like to go all or nothing. This will be like when Zelda went from Super Nintendo to N64: total 3D upgrade.

No, get real, this will not happen, and you haven't got seth's permission to make it. Sorry.

A new editor however is a good idea.

Also: I like to go all or nothing. This will be like when Zelda went from Super Nintendo to N64: total 3D upgrade.

Yes, but they had a team that worked together. Historically, we haven't been able to let two people work on a D-Mod so.. this is gonna be difficult. Also a RPG doesn't necessarily need 3D to tell a story and to look good.

The guys over at the infinity engine forums are still editing and doing total conversions of the Baldur's Gate 2 & Icewind Dale 2 engine. That kind of graphics I would like to see with an easy to use editor to go with it

The guys over at the infinity engine forums are still editing and doing total conversions of the Baldur's Gate 2 & Icewind Dale 2 engine. That kind of graphics I would like to see with an easy to use editor to go with it

If you'll give me a link, I'd like to check it out.

Well, so far on this post and the other about my notion of dink 2, I am only being met with a disinterested response at best. I'm going to let it run for a few days and see what turns up, but from what I'm seeing, I'm not the one to write your dink 2. On the other hand, if you like my idea, there is still time to convince me otherwise. It all depends on what dinkers are looking for. Don't worry about what I think, I don't feel. No one will harass you the other way, either. Just tell me what YOU think, I just really want to know.

Well, I think the dink 2 idea officially bombed. I'm, therefore, going back to working on this editor. If anyone would like to join me, I'll be glad for all assistance. I think I've made an a** of myself the last few days with my dink 2 thread. I can't help it. I follow the classic saying "dang the torpedos, full speed ahead." I don't like to let a point go easily, especially if it means giving into defeatism.

I realise I am new to this site, but you must admit, it is badly in need of new blood in many ways. I am not going to pretend here: I have yet to make a D-mod. I just got irked with the editor. That's why I want to make a good cross platform editor, so Linux users like me and others could actually finish D-mods. I would LOVE to make a new epic mod, but freedinkedit is too aggravating. I just can't bring myself to keep going with my D-mod. That's why I want to use a talent I've perfected, C++ programming, to solve my problem. It's selfish, but I'm trying to do it in as unselfish a way as possible. Trying to give it to everyone.

Anyway, that's my reasoning. I will post when I've made some kind of progress on the editor, and give some screen shots.

Well I love your motivation that's for sure Let's hope it survives till the end of your project^^

What have you made in C++ before?

JOIN ME! and lets make the definitive cross platform editor that puts all others to shame.

You know what your problem is?

You are a loudmouth who's dreams are way too big.

Godley, since when were you such an arse-hole?

Ed. Ok, I just think we ought to encourage darksign - not shoot him down while he's still getting off the ground, so to speak.
So: Darksign - go for gold, mate. I'm keen to see what you can do. Can you be the next big thing? Gee - we should start a "The Dink Network's Got Talent"

Schnapper, since when did you suck? Don't become like the others.

You are a loudmouth who's dreams are way too big.

People have written other D-Mod editors. Were those dreams too big?

They were established members, not some weird newcomer with almost zero experience.

And zero knowledge of what the limitations of the current editors are.

And zero knowledge of what the people actually require.

Godley, why on earth are you being so antagonistic? Are new members not allowed to do this kind of thing unless they've passed some kind of "proof of dinkishness" test?

Are new members not allowed to do this kind of thing unless they've passed some kind of "proof of dinkishness" test?

I vote for that!

Who's going to stop them?

Just ignore Godley, I think he's had a bit too much sour milk yesterday

I was thinking that if you're going through with this, a continuous stream of updates for us to enjoy would probably be a good extra motivator for you too. We easily get excited by screenies and promises of grandeur. Okay, maybe not THAT easily, but still!

What have you made in C++ before?

I've been wondering this too. If you linked to some of your other projects, maybe fewer people would think you're blowing smoke.

I don't see anything wrong with this idea, in fact, I would love a better editor with more features. I'd use it.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter if people would use this. It's never going to see the light of the day anyway.

What have you made in C++ before?

I've been wondering this too. If you linked to some of your other projects, maybe fewer people would think you're blowing smoke.

Unfortunately, most of my programs I never put on line, and I lost all of them when an old hard drive of mine broke down. All the others I was just second string on. Most of them have failed and been taken off line, others still aren't even to alpha stage. This will be my first go at leading an online project.

So what it comes down to is: You'll just have to wait and watch what I can do!

And by the way, in case Godley is looking, here's a quote for you from the Dink Smallwood source code:

Seth says, "This is the Dink Smallwood source code, a pretty decent RPG/Adventure game basically untouched since it was created in 1997 except for a few bugfixes.

I always planned to go through and renovate it myself, but as time goes on, this seems less and less likely. I would just rather re-write then fix-up, especially when the project was my first ever windows game."

Put that in your pipe and smoke it! Noobs are awsome!

Unfortunately, most of my programs I never put on line, and I lost all of them when an old hard drive of mine broke down. All the others I was just second string on. Most of them have failed and been taken off line, others still aren't even to alpha stage.

Excuses, Excuses and yet more excuses.

EXCUSES

my first ever windows game.

It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from my first game.

Unfortunately, most of my programs I never put on line, and I lost all of them when an old hard drive of mine broke down. All the others I was just second string on. Most of them have failed and been taken off line, others still aren't even to alpha stage. This will be my first go at leading an online project.

So what it comes down to is: You'll just have to wait and watch what I can do!

At least you're honest. But I am not surprised. It's very often beginners who boast about their C++ skills and they come up with big projects. Like I indicated here, it's significantly easier to start a project than to finish it. Nonetheless one project has to be the first one to be finished so you could show us wrong.

Godley, shut your' pie-hole. You've haven't released anything - even less then humble me, yet you rip into one who would make something great?!

I have released exactly the same number of files as the greatest dinker ever: TAL

In Seth's defence he had sold the rights of Legend of the Red Dragon to finance Dink. He was already pretty well established by that time.

In Seth's defence

Sorry, didn't mean to come off like I was attacking Seth. My point was: Dink was Seth's first windows program, and yet here we all are, over ten years later, still using and enjoying it. Therefore, even a first project can turn out great.

It was not Seth's first project: Seth had released various games for earlier platforms, such as Legend Of The Red Dragon, Legend Of The Red Dragon II and Planets: TEOS (The Exploration Of Space). It was merely his first Windows project.

Seth's first projects (which he spoke of some time ago and which were never released), from what I've understood, were pretty horrible actually.

im really looking forward to this please make it as user friendly as possibe x

im really looking forward to this please make it as user friendly as possibe

I'll try my best!

Now, go and start programming for a month, take screenshots of the basic interface and post here for feedback!

Now, go and start programming for a month, take screenshots of the basic interface and post here for feedback!

It's already in the works. I'm working even as I'm watching this thread. Talking and arguing gives me a break from coding.

The guy that made Freedink was making some windinkedit-like editor using pygtk, or so said Freedink screenshot page. Whatever happened to it?

Don't really know myself. Maybe he just lost interest before he got that far and went for a simpler to make layout? We may never know...

I tried to port windinkedit a while ago, but I made a couple bad choices (C/GObject instead of C++, PyGtk's codegen instead of python-ctypes) that slowed me down. I was also trying to make the code reusable for other projects, but doing it in addition to the porting proved too difficult.

The dependency on MFC (for the GUI parts, specific to windows) is not such a problem, because windinkedit only uses basic MFC features, and in particular it does _not_ really use the Model/View framework.

In the mean time I found other challenges to tackle (starting with the PSP port ), and I haven't came back to this project since then.

The latest code of windinkedit is available under the GNU GPL (I had asked Nexis and WC at the time). I don't know about windinkedit+ though.

Cheers!

I actually already have the source for both windinkedit and windinkedit plus, but I'm only using them as a reference and for ideas. I'm writing my editor from scratch because I've come up with a class hierarchy layout which should make it easier to expand and maintain.

Good luck with the PSP port, I'm sure you can do it!

He already has.

Ah, good. Make sure that you put the dinkvar.h code next to WC's FAQ. There are some inaccuracies when it comes to junk bytes, specifically in hard.dat. For which I don't blame him too much. I mean, he pretty much had to reverse-engineer the entire map format since the source wasn't out back then.

That said, the freedink code for file reading is probably cleaner.

Actually, I also have the freedink source too! I was having trouble with finding the loading related functions, so thanks for pointing out dinkvar.h to me. I'm wading through it right now.

In the original code, "load_map" in dinkvar.h reads from map.dat, (line 2368 and further). "load_hard" reads from hard.dat (line 3008 and further), and "load_info" reads dink.dat (line 2984). This reading is done with just a call to fread(), so you'll need to look at the struct definitions to check out what the file layout looks like. Also keep byte padding in mind, that fooled me the first time.

In freedink, loading of a single screen of map.dat happens in the "load_map_to" function of "dinkvar.c" (line 907). Similarly, there's "load_hard" around line 1860 for hard.dat and "load_info_to" (line 1785). The freedink code is explicit about reading bytes, instead of just using fread().

Thank you! You just saved me a couple hours of looking back and forth and thinking!

You will vastly underestimate the amount of time it takes to do something. Your biggest challenge will be to remain motivated. That said, do not let others discourage you.

I stopped developing Windemere because I had no motivation to do things I didn't want to do. I can develop the game engine itself without a problem, but doing graphics, sound, or writing an editor is not something I wished to do. If others were willing to take care of those parts, I would consider picking it back up again.

I am a C++ (and C, Assembly) developer by profession, but I have no desire to write GUIs; I do high-performance algorithms. I would be willing, however, to provide advice, if you wish?

Iplaydink, be nice and offer your artistic skills as slaves for Merlin. To get this dang Windemere finally out. And Gamehampe and Christiaan for editors and music. Me as a slave driver!

I would love to make graphics if the development of windemere was picked up. I'd of course render everything in BMP for dink too so it wouldn't be wasted if it wasn't finished, like Ric's graphics.

I would be willing, however, to provide advice, if you wish?

I would love any advice you have to give. I am trying to make a profession out of programming myself, but haven't really gotten anywhere with that. You strong suit is also mine: I love to make algorithms. Anything that pushes my mind and not my artistic ability. My favourite thing to develop is AIs. All that being said, I'm not to proud to admit I can always learn more, and when ever I find a new teacher, I always seem to. So, yes, I would love advice.

Also, although I haven't really heard what it is (although a lot of people apparently want it done), I would be happy to reciprocate and help with Windemere, if you found the others you need to finish the project.

Please find my email address in my profile. Alternatively, I would be willing to meet you in IRC, so long as it is Friday or the weekend.

We may be able to discuss what you are trying to do, and I can give you general guidelines or structural advice. You are, of course, free to ignore what I say.

I don't really like to talk about unfinished projects, because it gives people expectations and I don't want to disappoint them. This is why I haven't written here before.

I'm using freedink on Debian GNU/Linux, and I agree with many people that there is no decent editor available. So I too started writing one.

My editor is pretty much finished. There are some bugs which still need to be fixed, and some features I want to add (aren't there always?), but in general it seems to work. I want to write a simple dmod with it soon to get all the bugs out.

I'll start a new topic about my editor. Still, I thought it would be good to let you know. I don't mean to discourage you from finishing your own project. I'm sure you want some things which are impossible with (and cannot be implemented in) my editor. You may want to look at my source though, especially the part that implement Seth's design choices and mistakes.

Hey there Merlin, long time no see

I think the two of you would do well to work together on this and with iPlayDink offering his help on the graphics side, I think you could make something happen together. There is enough freeware sound and music available on the internet for those who know where to look (I know where xD).

To shevek:

Yes, I read your post. I like that you wrote it in python because it is a much stronger language than Java and faster too. I'm also glad you already have it ready, because my life is very busy right now so my progress is slow on my editor.

I will continue to write my editor too because we need an editor written in C++ if we want a lot of features. As good a language as python is, it is still a scripting language. Thinking about it, however, I can make you the same offer I made GameHampe: if you want, I can write some of the heftier background stuff in C++ and we can combine the two languages to make a faster program. Then we could just have one editor and save us both some time. Your choice; just pm me if you want to discuss doing it.

To Kyle:

It's Merlin's project, so its all up to him. I'm just glad he's willing to offer up advice when I need it.

And what is Windemere anyway? Will someone please give me a link, I want to know what all the hub-bub's about.

Use the forum search! xD

It was a serious attempt at an all new dink engine/game.

Is Python faster than Java? I'd expect it to be similar, being both interpreted languages. OTOH the Python guys have put a lot of work in performance, and it probably paid off. I'm always surprised how fast it is for a scripting language.

I think compiling on a Windows machine is a nightmare. This is one reason I chose Python: it makes it cross-platform without actually needing to compile things on Windows. For the same reason, unless things become unbearably slow, I want to stick to pure Python. Also, I'm not sure how much faster it would become, as all really slow things (drawing) are done by Gtk, not Python.

I disagree that a featureful editor cannot be written in Python. But don't let that stop you from working on a C++ editor.

I like that you wrote it in python because it is a much stronger language than Java and faster too.

Python and Java are equivalent in terms of computer power, it's just that Python allows you to express many things more succinctly than Java. I don't think Python is faster than Java though.. if you have too many function calls (regardless of what they do) then CPython becomes really slow which isn't a problem in Java. This is due to the dynamic lookup of functions in Python.

I will continue to write my editor too because we need an editor written in C++ if we want a lot of features. As good a language as python is, it is still a scripting language.

The distinction between programming and scripting language is really vague. It can be argued that Java is also a scripting language because its bytecode is interpreted with an interpreter (i.e., it is not compiled). Also, Python and C++ can both do the same things, it's just that C++ will be faster.

I prefer the terms interpreted and compiled. Scripting makes it sound like the language is only good for writing add-ons to other programs or short, one-off scripts for sysadmin tasks.

Wow, looks like I'm a little late on this one. Aaaanyway, I was going to switch to Linux now, in the middle of my d-modding, and, though I don't have experience with freedinkedit, sucks to hear that it doesn't seem to work as smooth as Windinkedit...
Either way, have you progressed in this project? I'd love it, and completely support the idea.