The Dink Network

I don't know if anyone really cares, but I've found a way to eliminate spelling errors in most of my posts. After typing messages I will now use the spellcheck feature in Google Toolbar For Firefox (which I didn't know about until today). I say "most of my posts" because I cannot guarantee that I will always remember to do it.

There is no point to be so strict if your not speaking english generally, I don't care if I get some spelling error and no one blames me

English is my first (and only) language, so I have no excuse. The simple fact of the matter is that when I type fast (i.e. always) I sometimes press keys in the wrong order. That's where most of my mistakes come from. Besides, this way I might also learn something when i make errors due to actual not knowing.

Happy spell checking. It will be a relief

Usually, if a word contains the same letters, but in a different order, and only the first and the last one are where they should, the human brain can still understand.
By the way, I'm not a native English speaker, so probably that's why I don't notice your mistakes, but I'm sure I do many.

Well, crypy others here have noticed and nagged me about it. They've let up lately, but they did do it.

It's perfectly normal to make spelling errors. Like me, I could never spell grammar correctly.

You've got a bit better now though. Last time I saw you post on these boards I saw alot of shortened words and spelling errors like I had too once and I still have

I'm not usually as bad as I was then. Usually I type in a word processor, so keys presses extra times and in addition from when I type too fast aren't an issue then. I actually know how to spell pretty well, but I try to type too fast. Maybe I should try to learn to slow down.

Well, crypy
Am I that creepy? Or your spell-checker doesn't have my name in his dictionary?

Of course it doesn't have your name cypry. The odd thing is I copied and pasted it... seems my pc had a hickup...

Funny thing, you misspelled it again

Not anymore!

It's 'hiccup' incidentally... or 'hiccough'...
As for spelling mistakes, I understand that it's hard to always get things right when typing quickly... but well done for the attempt.
As for those of you who don't think it's important... IT IS. Why speak a language if you don't do it properly?! As for the brain understanding, that it might, but it doesn't excuse carelessness.

Now that I've had my nitpicking session, I'm away.

Why speak a language if you don't do it properly?!

Eh, perhaps it's harder to get a job when you don't talk? I mean some people don't even speak their own language fluently.

Eh, perhaps it's harder to get a job when you don't talk? I mean some people don't even speak their own language fluently.

Indeed. Besides English is not exactly the easiest language. Far from it.

I'd say it's one of the easier languages in the world, though.

Compared to what? It's got contractions, phrases that don't mean what they literally say, and a heavy amount of context which is expressed in *how* it's spoken. Most other languages are not like that. Plus, English grammer is fairly mixed up compared to other languages I've studied.

I'd say it's one of the easier languages in the world, though.

There's areas of English most people don't know of that I like to call "Writer's English". The reason for it is that writers are the most common group of people to learn it. English is a far more advanced language than most think it is. Many many people make mistakes that only those that know "Writer's English" notice.

Compared to what? It's got contractions, phrases that don't mean what they literally say, and a heavy amount of context is expressed in *how* it's spoken. Most other languages are not like that. Plus, English grammer is fairly mixed up compared to other languages I've studied.

Add to that more words that are spelt similar with the same or only miniscule pronunciation differences and more words that have multiple meanings, some of which aren't particularly similar. Or at least more than most languages anyway.

The rules of English can be some of the complicated and convulted rules compared to most languages. More so than most people realise. Hence my comment about "Writer's English".

"It's got contractions, phrases that don't mean what they literally say, and a heavy amount of context which is expressed in *how* it's spoken. Most other languages are not like that."

I think almost every language has those things, actually. I know English is the most advanced language in the world, but it's relatively easy to learn (not to master).

I know English is the most advanced language in the world, but it's relatively easy to learn (not to master).

To learn the basics isn't hard. But the basics aren't the language itself. They are only a tiny portion of it. They are the bare minimium needed to write and speak it understandably. the language itself is a lot more. It is a myrid maze of rules and structure that even the best (J.R.R. Tolkien was among them) find it hard to know it all. It is also one of the languages that are evolving the fastest.

I think almost every language has those things, actually.

Yeah, but English has more than many other languages.

Reasons English is easy:
Nouns don't have genders.
Regular verbs are only conjugated in third person plural (in the present tense, at least.)
No moods.

Reasons English is hard:
Letters can make completely different, unpredictable sounds in different contexts.
The use of articles, although similar to some other languages, really doesn't make much sense, intuitively.
It has a lot of tenses (one example from the machine translation book I'm reading: the simple present tense of French can correspond to any of 4 tenses in English, depending on context.)

Well, that's to say that *proper* english doesn't have genders for nouns. Slang english has informal noun genders.

Hmm... Chrispy, can you give any examples? I'm truly clueless in this area, I'm always suspicious (or maybe curious) when I hear that some French words have 'genders'.

It's like when I brag about a fictional car that I bought, "She's got a powerful engine." It's akward to use "He's got a powerful engine." It doesn't flow well at all. It would be proper to use It's, the neutral gender. If you ask me why, I could probably ramble off some scheme that would end with a freudism, so basically I have no idea.

Genders in french are only noticible when it is written if I recall my high school french correctly. When spoken they sound the same. They genderized all thier nouns either male or female, and most of the time they are easily identifiable, either with how the flow of the words goes or if it's distinctly obvious, like flower. Or Le dog if it's male and la dog if it's female. Stuff like that.

The distinctly obvious part is only obvious if you relate the word to when they formally structured the french language. That means poem is masculine, as it was the manly thing back then to write poetry. So there are quirks that you don't expect sometimes.

"spelt"??? You probably mean "spelled" (I can be a pedantic nitpicker, too )

1) Both 'spelt' and 'spelled' are considered correct.
2) Interestingly, Latin nouns are inherently masculine, feminine or neuter... for example, 'stella' or 'star' is feminine, whilst 'bellum' or 'war' is neuter... (A key difference between English, Latin and French.)
3) As for my earlier rant... I just believe that if you're going to speak a language, you should strive to speak it properly.

Ok, I think I'm done now.
Oh, except to say that although English has less 'rules' if you like than other languages (gender-specific nouns, changing verb/adjective endings depending on tense or mood), its very lack of structure makes it difficult to master. There are less patterns to get your head around in the beginning, but speaking English properly is no mean feat. (I guess for once I actually agree with DD... to a certain extent)

It's certainly hard for people for whom it's a second language. It's not as hard as a first language. But then aren't all languages easier as a first language? After all you grow up around it. English, though, is a language where the gap is bigger than most languages.

Again, I really don't agree. It's a well known fact that the following languages are harder to learn as a second language: (for Dutch speaking persons anyway) French, Spanish, Finnish, Chinese, Japanese, and maybe even German. Everyone I personally know considers English the easiest language to learn as a second language.

Its not a particularly difficult language to learn to converse in... but I do think it is a difficult language to fully understand.

Indeed. That's what I've been trying to say. yes, people can learn to speak it easily. But fully understanding? Not easily, no. There's a difference between speaking and understanding something fully.

So, in short, I agree with IceDomina.

I agree. English is rather easy to get started in & on, but it gets progressively harder to really understand. Just conversing with some people on 'ordinary' subjects is not so hard, but when handling somewhat more intricate things you have to try harder.

The same is true - to a certain extent - of all other languages; it's relatively easy to acquire some basic language skills and be able to make oneself understood. But to be able to appreciate just about every utterance in some language, let alone understand it in full...

Does anyone know what constitutes a 'normal' (if there even is such a thing ) vocabulary for, let's say, English and Dutch?

Indeed. And writing English is harder to learn than speaking it. I assume it's the same for other languages. People are fusier when reading words than they are when hearing them.

I'm just as fussy when writing and speaking. How unfortunate.

I think it is something like 100k words. I could be low though...

I think it's more like 400,000 words.

I had that thought too, but it seems a little high.

I don't know what you people are talking about.

Two non-English languages I'm interested in learning are Japanese and French...

Around fifty thousand words is normal IIRC, but obviously there is variation based on reading, education, family etc.