The Turning - Part One of Two
IMO, way too wordy (understandably). An example.
"We were forbidden to use what the elders called curse words nor boast or praise ourselves or others for we were taught that these things led to the downfall of mankind. But we could use descriptive terms of speech as long as we kept it 'clean' and didn't insult each other. Even so, we had learned how to make not-so-hidden meanings for both stinging someone or praising of sorts and all this within plain hearing. It depended on the tone, circumstances, and person speaking how you wanted to take it. Many conversations were spoken that had the true contents beneath the words. And many were spoken that could be taken on the surface."
Which boils down to: "Though the elders had banned boasting and condescion, we had all learned the art of sarcasm." Or something like that.
I can see why you're doing what you're doing, but it just doesn't work for me.
"We were forbidden to use what the elders called curse words nor boast or praise ourselves or others for we were taught that these things led to the downfall of mankind. But we could use descriptive terms of speech as long as we kept it 'clean' and didn't insult each other. Even so, we had learned how to make not-so-hidden meanings for both stinging someone or praising of sorts and all this within plain hearing. It depended on the tone, circumstances, and person speaking how you wanted to take it. Many conversations were spoken that had the true contents beneath the words. And many were spoken that could be taken on the surface."
Which boils down to: "Though the elders had banned boasting and condescion, we had all learned the art of sarcasm." Or something like that.
I can see why you're doing what you're doing, but it just doesn't work for me.
BTW, as a story, this is pretty good. You'd think it'd be cliche, but it ain't. And the third paragraph is a work of art, although I disagree with it on principle.
While I'm afraid to say that I haven't had a chance to read any of your stories in depth (I just skimmed this one), it seems like you're very defensive of your writing. It just comes off as... odd, that's all.
Just don't kill me when I write a full critique of a story of yours (both the good and the bad)
Just don't kill me when I write a full critique of a story of yours (both the good and the bad)
I'm of the opinion that there are two legitimate ways to answer criticism of your writing:
1. Justify what you've written.
2. Change what you've written.
If you choose to justify, and do it well, then you aren't being defensive; you're being logical. So yeah, I didn't think you were being defensive.
The only "sin" one can commit as a writer is to accept the weakness of one's own writing, and I suppose everyone has to do this eventually, otherwise nothing would ever be finished.
On an unrelated note, I disagree with the idea of allowing setup to precede action (excepting flashbacks), so we "agree to disagree" on that point. I have never enjoyed a story which explained motivations before actions.
1. Justify what you've written.
2. Change what you've written.
If you choose to justify, and do it well, then you aren't being defensive; you're being logical. So yeah, I didn't think you were being defensive.
The only "sin" one can commit as a writer is to accept the weakness of one's own writing, and I suppose everyone has to do this eventually, otherwise nothing would ever be finished.
On an unrelated note, I disagree with the idea of allowing setup to precede action (excepting flashbacks), so we "agree to disagree" on that point. I have never enjoyed a story which explained motivations before actions.
Weeel, one more time. I like this version better. The other was not interesting enuff and entirely too wordy. Milo?
Note: here follow my honest opinion and reaction, which may be deemed harsh, but I mean nothing against you.
Stream-of-conscious-reaction:
"Old Timers even spoke of a future time when the sky..." seems awkward... what about 'Old Timers even spoke of a future where the sky...[/i]"
I'd recommend re-structuring paragraphs 2 & 4. It seems very confusing to reference things mention in Paragraph 2 from Paragraph 4. I didn't remember that you described the moon as 'pearly', and had to go back and re-read it to figure out what you were talking about. Maybe you could incorporate some small snippets into Paragraph 2 and drop the rest.
I have difficulty trying to pronounce 'Atiere' in my mind.
'concil' -> 'council'
'Pawa' = reference to elder (aunt, uncle, something?) Why did the herder greet with 'Atiere' at first, then?
'Berry' seems like a very out-of-place name.
'her sick child' -> Child's name, even if it isn't revealed to the reader who this is. The narrator should know that the child is sick, and the elder has no reason to say it like that. If you want to beat us over the head with it, you could mention it, but it's probably ok to make it a little vague.
Flashbacks in flashbacks
My mind hurty.
Wait, they live underground? Everything before this led me to believe the 'compound' was a fenced-in area... well, it wasn't really described, so I made this assumption.
I got tired of writing stream-of-conciously at this point.
Overall critique:
The concept seems interesting, if a bit over-done: post-apocalyptic world ruled by tribes. Not going out at night reminds me of horror movies. Yay for radioactive zombies chasing Berry.
I don't really care for the execution. I know how you want to describe everything about this world and the character relationships... but these parts distracted me from what was going on. As the reader, I don't really need to be explictly told everything. Give me some hints on what is going on (introduce the fact that Berry is an un-blood cousin during some conversatino with Mawa or something), but don't tell me everything. Show me.
And with the post-apocalyptic stuff, maybe a hint or two as to what is going on (i.e. mention right away that the compound is underground, made of concrete and metal), but again, don't explain everything.
Like, maybe have Pawa over-hear some of the elders telling some of the others some stories while he is walking to get his stuff, and leave it at that.
Tell the story from the narrator's point of view to another tribesman. He wouldn't go on explaining everything the other tribesman already knows, would he?
So, now that I've basically said to change every single thing about it ( ), I'm going to read Part 2 now.
Stream-of-conscious-reaction:
"Old Timers even spoke of a future time when the sky..." seems awkward... what about 'Old Timers even spoke of a future where the sky...[/i]"
I'd recommend re-structuring paragraphs 2 & 4. It seems very confusing to reference things mention in Paragraph 2 from Paragraph 4. I didn't remember that you described the moon as 'pearly', and had to go back and re-read it to figure out what you were talking about. Maybe you could incorporate some small snippets into Paragraph 2 and drop the rest.
I have difficulty trying to pronounce 'Atiere' in my mind.
'concil' -> 'council'
'Pawa' = reference to elder (aunt, uncle, something?) Why did the herder greet with 'Atiere' at first, then?
'Berry' seems like a very out-of-place name.
'her sick child' -> Child's name, even if it isn't revealed to the reader who this is. The narrator should know that the child is sick, and the elder has no reason to say it like that. If you want to beat us over the head with it, you could mention it, but it's probably ok to make it a little vague.
Flashbacks in flashbacks
My mind hurty.Wait, they live underground? Everything before this led me to believe the 'compound' was a fenced-in area... well, it wasn't really described, so I made this assumption.
I got tired of writing stream-of-conciously at this point.
Overall critique:
The concept seems interesting, if a bit over-done: post-apocalyptic world ruled by tribes. Not going out at night reminds me of horror movies. Yay for radioactive zombies chasing Berry.
I don't really care for the execution. I know how you want to describe everything about this world and the character relationships... but these parts distracted me from what was going on. As the reader, I don't really need to be explictly told everything. Give me some hints on what is going on (introduce the fact that Berry is an un-blood cousin during some conversatino with Mawa or something), but don't tell me everything. Show me.
And with the post-apocalyptic stuff, maybe a hint or two as to what is going on (i.e. mention right away that the compound is underground, made of concrete and metal), but again, don't explain everything.
Like, maybe have Pawa over-hear some of the elders telling some of the others some stories while he is walking to get his stuff, and leave it at that.
Tell the story from the narrator's point of view to another tribesman. He wouldn't go on explaining everything the other tribesman already knows, would he?
So, now that I've basically said to change every single thing about it (
), I'm going to read Part 2 now.
Awesome redink. I sadly have to say that you are right in nearly everything you said. The story has bothered me from the time I did the revisions and changed my course on things. For want of a better explanation, I lost my groove. I quit work on it and went to something else.
Your suggestions are quite helpful and pinpoint exactly what was needed. I probably won't do the rewrite here but now I know what to do. You were not harsh but thorough and I appreciate the critique.
You said to let the reader have hints and not full explanations. You are right. I'll get better on that. However there are two things that I won't change because it 'feels' right to me.
'Pawa' = reference to elder (aunt, uncle, something?) Why did the herder greet with 'Atiere' at first, then?
The herder referenced Atiere as Pawa as a lead-in to what Mawa says later. He expects Atiere to be the clan leader (Pawa) someday and I left that up to the reader to understand. Merlin had it right. Pawa is clan leader (father) and pawa is also father-leader of his immediate family.
Pawa (noun) = Clan Father/Leader. And
pawa (descriptive term) = father/leader of the immediate family group.
'Berry' seems like a very out-of-place name.
Well you'll just have to live with it. I picked that name because these clans live off the land. That was not stated in so many words but again I thought the reader would gather that. Originally there were more characters in the story with names like hers. Sorry if I was too vague. I might add another person in there somewhere or change Saleria's name. Boy, this can be tough to squish a story down from an original. I'm leaving out too much I guess or not catching things I should.
Oh and Atiere? Pronounced A-Tear. Tear as in crying.
Again, thank you for the very helpful info. You did a very well thought out critique.
Your suggestions are quite helpful and pinpoint exactly what was needed. I probably won't do the rewrite here but now I know what to do. You were not harsh but thorough and I appreciate the critique.
You said to let the reader have hints and not full explanations. You are right. I'll get better on that. However there are two things that I won't change because it 'feels' right to me.
'Pawa' = reference to elder (aunt, uncle, something?) Why did the herder greet with 'Atiere' at first, then?
The herder referenced Atiere as Pawa as a lead-in to what Mawa says later. He expects Atiere to be the clan leader (Pawa) someday and I left that up to the reader to understand. Merlin had it right. Pawa is clan leader (father) and pawa is also father-leader of his immediate family.
Pawa (noun) = Clan Father/Leader. And
pawa (descriptive term) = father/leader of the immediate family group.
'Berry' seems like a very out-of-place name.
Well you'll just have to live with it. I picked that name because these clans live off the land. That was not stated in so many words but again I thought the reader would gather that. Originally there were more characters in the story with names like hers. Sorry if I was too vague. I might add another person in there somewhere or change Saleria's name. Boy, this can be tough to squish a story down from an original. I'm leaving out too much I guess or not catching things I should.
Oh and Atiere? Pronounced A-Tear. Tear as in crying.
Again, thank you for the very helpful info. You did a very well thought out critique.
Berry: I can understand how she might be named after the land, but is anyone else? All of the other names seemed like they were from another culture, and to have one character that was a common noun seemed odd.
I'm somewhat disappointed that you're not planning my demise (Well, at least publicly).
I'm somewhat disappointed that you're not planning my demise
(Well, at least publicly).I read your story and here goes. Seeing as how you didn't kill redink1 I am figuring I may survive too. (But he is the KING, and I'm a lowsy peasant.)
This seems very...used. "Searching For Summer" by Joan Aiken is a short story written about somewhat the exact same thing. Except instead of the moon they seek the sun. Post apoctalyptic is used quiet frequently and gets quite boring after awhile. Do not however change that part of it. This was my opinion. Others who haven't read these types of literature will be new to them and will enjoy them.
Switch up your words more. When you need to use the same word twice and it is close together, try and find another word with somewhat the same meaning. Thesaurus will help you with that if your vocabulary is small.
As redink1 said, you do give the impression that they are outside. I didn't at all get that they were underground until near the end when you are explaining about the ancient machinary. Reasons I thought they were above ground were that
He sees the moon...
He was herding animals...
"I was in the fields tending to daily tasks..."
The last one doesn't exactly strengthen my point as much as the first one. (Check the definition of field and you will see why.) Well I'll tell you to save you time. Field is a large expance of land. You can have that underground. However to the reader it is presumed that it would be out in the open.
Just three small examples. You may have tried to imply things, as you previosly mentioned in the other reviews but us as readers didn't understand it. If one person doesn't understand it then maybe they are dopey, but if you get many people telling you that they didn't catch what you were throwing at them, then it may need a little touching up. If you don't want to with this piece of literature that is fine. Do as you please, but remember it for future works.
The clan seemed like a hierarchy...I didn't quite understand it. Mawa, Pawa, then you had the elders and clan leaders.
Many horror movies have used the theme, "Don't leave the town after dark...we can't let you back in if you do." I don't know about in the Eastern world, but there is a movie here called "The Village" that uses that similiar plot. Only there are twists and differences that I will not go into.
I don't know why, but when you began mentioning the word, "Compound," and proceded in describing the place...I kept thinking of Nazi Germany and the Death Camps that were set up.
With whole Mawa Pawa thing it made me thing that the narrator was an incesterous freak-a-zoid. I mean...He didn't love Mawa apparently...and he was going after someone who called him Pawa or something. I don't know, it was hazy to me.
Where there dead people in the ceilings? That's what I got from the very end.
All in all I still think it was a interesting story to read. I read it all the way through. If I didn't like it and/or find it interesting at all I would have quite halfway through. It kept me awake and reading. Good job on that.
*Will read part two another day*
Cloudnaeris
This seems very...used. "Searching For Summer" by Joan Aiken is a short story written about somewhat the exact same thing. Except instead of the moon they seek the sun. Post apoctalyptic is used quiet frequently and gets quite boring after awhile. Do not however change that part of it. This was my opinion. Others who haven't read these types of literature will be new to them and will enjoy them.
Switch up your words more. When you need to use the same word twice and it is close together, try and find another word with somewhat the same meaning. Thesaurus will help you with that if your vocabulary is small.
As redink1 said, you do give the impression that they are outside. I didn't at all get that they were underground until near the end when you are explaining about the ancient machinary. Reasons I thought they were above ground were that
He sees the moon...
He was herding animals...
"I was in the fields tending to daily tasks..."
The last one doesn't exactly strengthen my point as much as the first one. (Check the definition of field and you will see why.) Well I'll tell you to save you time. Field is a large expance of land. You can have that underground. However to the reader it is presumed that it would be out in the open.
Just three small examples. You may have tried to imply things, as you previosly mentioned in the other reviews but us as readers didn't understand it. If one person doesn't understand it then maybe they are dopey, but if you get many people telling you that they didn't catch what you were throwing at them, then it may need a little touching up. If you don't want to with this piece of literature that is fine. Do as you please, but remember it for future works.
The clan seemed like a hierarchy...I didn't quite understand it. Mawa, Pawa, then you had the elders and clan leaders.
Many horror movies have used the theme, "Don't leave the town after dark...we can't let you back in if you do." I don't know about in the Eastern world, but there is a movie here called "The Village" that uses that similiar plot. Only there are twists and differences that I will not go into.
I don't know why, but when you began mentioning the word, "Compound," and proceded in describing the place...I kept thinking of Nazi Germany and the Death Camps that were set up.
With whole Mawa Pawa thing it made me thing that the narrator was an incesterous freak-a-zoid. I mean...He didn't love Mawa apparently...and he was going after someone who called him Pawa or something. I don't know, it was hazy to me.
Where there dead people in the ceilings? That's what I got from the very end.
All in all I still think it was a interesting story to read. I read it all the way through. If I didn't like it and/or find it interesting at all I would have quite halfway through. It kept me awake and reading. Good job on that.
*Will read part two another day*
Cloudnaeris
You, I can kill, peasant. 
"Searching For Summer" by Joan Aiken
Never never read it nor heard of her and certainly didn't plagiarize. I'll have to look for it next time I'm in town since I love horror stories.
This seems very...used
and
Do not however change that part of it.
In this day and age, I don't think anyone is unaware of the potential of nuclear weapons. It's of great concern right now and probably always will be. You might consider the subject matter old hat but I do not and have no intention of changing it. But that is okay, just a difference of opinion. My next story will be quite different. (fingers crossed)
Switch up your words more.
Opps I try to watch that. I'll look for that and change it.
(A) Thesaurus will help you with that if your vocabulary is small.
That sounded kind of snotty.
I have a thesaurus and I use it. In fact, I have two. But, er, thanks anyway.
..you do give the impression that they are outside.
Yes, they are during the day. I don't think I made that clear enough. Sorry.
Reasons I thought they were above ground were that
He sees the moon...
He was herding animals...
"I was in the fields tending to daily tasks..."
I added this line to make it clearer but obviously failed. Dadgummit. "The beautiful night. I was in a lot of trouble. It started earlier in the day when I heard my name called. I was in the fields tending to daily tasks.." Think I'll change it a little.
But you also mentioned "He see's the moon". Actually the story starts out in the night and flashbacks to events in the day.
..but if you get many people telling you that they didn't catch what you were throwing at them, then it may need a little touching up.
And..
The clan seemed like a hierarchy...I didn't quite understand it. Mawa, Pawa, then you had the elders and clan leaders.
I have another site where this story is also printed. I'm not really sure why but the other readers didn't have any problem with it. Oh well. I will try to clarify that.
..there is a movie here called "The Village" that uses that similiar plot
Again? Note to self: Ignore this. He knows not what he infers. And if he does know....grrr.
As for the rest of what you said..
I don't know, it was hazy to me.
Quite.
No. No dead people in the ceiling. Since the compound is underground, they heard the hollow ones and the diseased ones above through the air vents. I will clarify that also.
While I appreciate and can respect a critique given in earnest to help a writer (which I believe you did), you write a little pompously and somewhat barbed, imo. But I do thank you for some fine points and thank you for taking the time to read the story.
"Searching For Summer" by Joan AikenNever never read it nor heard of her and certainly didn't plagiarize. I'll have to look for it next time I'm in town since I love horror stories.
This seems very...used
and
Do not however change that part of it.
In this day and age, I don't think anyone is unaware of the potential of nuclear weapons. It's of great concern right now and probably always will be. You might consider the subject matter old hat but I do not and have no intention of changing it. But that is okay, just a difference of opinion. My next story will be quite different. (fingers crossed)
Switch up your words more.
Opps I try to watch that. I'll look for that and change it.
(A) Thesaurus will help you with that if your vocabulary is small.
That sounded kind of snotty.
I have a thesaurus and I use it. In fact, I have two. But, er, thanks anyway.
..you do give the impression that they are outside.
Yes, they are during the day. I don't think I made that clear enough. Sorry.
Reasons I thought they were above ground were that
He sees the moon...
He was herding animals...
"I was in the fields tending to daily tasks..."
I added this line to make it clearer but obviously failed. Dadgummit. "The beautiful night. I was in a lot of trouble. It started earlier in the day when I heard my name called. I was in the fields tending to daily tasks.." Think I'll change it a little.
But you also mentioned "He see's the moon". Actually the story starts out in the night and flashbacks to events in the day.
..but if you get many people telling you that they didn't catch what you were throwing at them, then it may need a little touching up.
And..
The clan seemed like a hierarchy...I didn't quite understand it. Mawa, Pawa, then you had the elders and clan leaders.
I have another site where this story is also printed. I'm not really sure why but the other readers didn't have any problem with it. Oh well. I will try to clarify that.
..there is a movie here called "The Village" that uses that similiar plot
Again? Note to self: Ignore this. He knows not what he infers. And if he does know....grrr.
As for the rest of what you said..
I don't know, it was hazy to me.
Quite.
No. No dead people in the ceiling. Since the compound is underground, they heard the hollow ones and the diseased ones above through the air vents. I will clarify that also.
While I appreciate and can respect a critique given in earnest to help a writer (which I believe you did), you write a little pompously and somewhat barbed, imo. But I do thank you for some fine points and thank you for taking the time to read the story.
Made some minor adjustments. Redink is right that it's too heavy handed in the telling of certain things but will work on that another time.
I am sorry if I sounded pompous. I try to refrain from that image. That is one reason I don't like typing things out to people. Things such as critiques can seem very harsh when meant to be constructive. I meant it all in a helping way. As far as the book goes, I wasn't acusing you of plagiarizing. Sorry if it was taken in that way. Also you must remember I am most likely from a different part of the world then you so things are different. Things that may be overused over here may not be there. I guess that is my fault too. I should have taken that into consideration when reviewing your story. The Theasarus comment wasn't meant to accuse you of not having a limited vocabulary. Look at the statement again...
"(A) Thesaurus will help you with that IF your vocabulary is small."
I said, "If." I don't know you and have never spoken to you in an intellectual conversation, therefore I do not know if you have a varied vocabulary or not. I was just saying if you do then maybe you should seek help. If you do not, then you should just think of other words that could possibly fit into the situation. It just expands the story and makes it read less repetitive like.
I am sorry for any misunderstandings that may have been established through my review and I would like to give you this complimentary smiley to cheer you up.
Good luck on future pieces of literature as well.
Cloudnaeris
"(A) Thesaurus will help you with that IF your vocabulary is small."
I said, "If." I don't know you and have never spoken to you in an intellectual conversation, therefore I do not know if you have a varied vocabulary or not. I was just saying if you do then maybe you should seek help. If you do not, then you should just think of other words that could possibly fit into the situation. It just expands the story and makes it read less repetitive like.
I am sorry for any misunderstandings that may have been established through my review and I would like to give you this complimentary smiley to cheer you up.
Good luck on future pieces of literature as well.
Cloudnaeris
