The Dink Network

For some reason, I thought of my time here in the past and came for a look. It's cool to see that there are still a few around I've chatted with in the past and I'm enthralled my account still exists here.

Thank you for keeping this site and the game alive, it has helped in ways you can't imagine.

mm

Wow that has been a long time. Nice to see some old faces (or avatars) back.

Hey, I remember you... just barely. Congratulations for inching your way back on the forum.

Congratulations for inching your way back on the forum.

Wow. You just wasted a perfectly bad pun. You should have said 'congratulation on millimetering your way back on the forum'. C'mon Scratcher I thought you were better than this.

Anyways....

Welcome back to the forums, millimeter. Enjoy your stay. Be sure to check out Cocomonkey's 'Crazy Old Tim Plays All The Dmods' while you're here.

And Pokemon: Bible version.

Yeah, I actually sort of remember you, too. I think we're all kind of surprised that this thing is still going. Welcome back!

You'll love Pokemon: Bible Version. May even love it more than whatever your favourite dmod is which is probably a Stone of Balance or Cloud Castle 2, right?

Hey! I don't think I know you, or if you know me, but it doesn't matter. Welcome back !

Inches vs Millimeters ... I see what you did there.

You're name is familiar.

There was a gal named Carrie I remember, she had an issue with her Windows pc but I don't remember what problem turned out to be.

IIRC, the first thing I asked you way back when was if you'd heard of Fidonet ... I had remembered a Striker from dial-up BBS days. Thinking back now, I think the first time I downloaded Dink was on a 14,400 dial BBS.

Carrie's issue was probably just using Vista in general.

if you'd heard of Fidonet

What a coincidence; I played a game about that just yesterday. Fun game, too, at least for someone like me, who has actually used BBSs. I didn't ever get on Fidonet, though. Was that an American thing, maybe?

Oh, and welcome back! More people is always good.

Welcome back man, we may or may not have exchanged text in the past.

Hey shevek, did you ever finish Unteralterbach?

Yeah... Striker is a kind of common handle. I don't even use it anymore except here.

Fidonet was the first effective email system that I encountered, though it took a couple days to pass through the BBS uploads each day, it was still faster than snail mail. It is worth mentioning that a lot of people on the internet at that time were upgrading to 9600bps, many were still using 1200, and the Amiga still represented 1/3 of all internet identities.

Interestingly, they had only 2 rules which even now seem to make a lot of sense.

1. Thou shalt not be excessively annoying.
2. Thou shalt not be to easily annoyed.

*Editors note, I think I just showed my age there

@Quiz, my last name is Malm. Love the flag.

Hey shevek, did you ever finish Unteralterbach?

You know that's a disturbing question with your avatar, right?

I don't think I mentioned it on here; are you stalking me?

Anyway, yes I did finish one or two endings; nowhere near all of them. As I wrote in the place where you probably saw it, I think it's a very well made game, and I would recommend it to people who are into that sort of thing, but it's not something I enjoy. It's similar to horror movies: I can see if they're well made, and I can recommend them to people, but I don't like to watch them myself.

It also might be illegal in several countries, because their laws are stupid. I'm convinced that games like this one, if they have any effect on crime, will lower it, similar to how regular porn and access to prostitution lowers the amount of rape.

Did you play it yourself?

While we're on the topic of visual novels: here's one that I would recommend to anyone, because it is a great example of how you should treat people: Katawa Shoujo.

>I don't think I mentioned it on here; are you stalking me?

I was linked to your Debian Games consideration message/thread. It was being spread around on other sites and a lot of people found it quite funny how seriously you took it and how objectively you treated the whole thing considering what the game ultimately entails. I then recognised your email address and realised it was you! From the outside it looked like you were being trolled which seems to be the conclusion of many.

Having a look for it again shows that your exchange with Nils exploded and become something of a major argument among other Debian people which is quite unfortunate. The obvious problem with it is that this sort of thing ultimately becomes an emotive issue for many, rather than a consideration as to whether or not something meets the criteria for inclusion.

I did actually finish it with both "good" and "bad" endings (I didn't get 100% though) after the English translation came out. A lot of the dialogue and the puns don't make sense in English though. I talked about it in #dinksmallwood at the time I played it and tried to get skorn to play too but he wasn't up for it. I have a feeling that playing UAB is illegal in Australia and that I will be going to jail soon after making this post.

In case you didn't know, a lot of the in-game characters (including the girls) are based upon real people. In fact Maja is based upon a Dutch girl called Mara Groen/Green who was stalked earlier in the year (probably not because of UAB though). Incidentally it's her 14th birthday today.

It was being spread around on other sites

Yes, they made a much bigger deal out of it than I expected. What surprised me most was what was basically the following:
A: There is nudity in it! We can't accept that in Debian!
B: Sounds fair; we'll remove all the nudity and keep the story.
A: That doesn't change anything! Nudity is bad!
B: Did you even listen?

how objectively you treated the whole thing considering what the game ultimately entails

I very much like freedom of speech. Pedophilia is a serious issue and I don't think there is an easy solution to it. But shutting down the discussion is certainly not helping. Of course there are limits; making child pornography with real footage of actual children being abused should obviously be forbidden. I think there's also not much discussion about manipulating non-abusive material to make it porn. Making realistic-looking animations where no children are involved (including using footage of children that have now grown up and agree to it) is open for debate, in my opinion; that is not legal in the Netherlands and I'm not sure if I agree with that. Obviously unrealistic depictions such as cartoons and this visual novel should definitely be legal as far as I'm concerned, but aren't in several countries. Because of this, I think it is very reasonable for Debian to keep those images out. This is easily possible, because the story isn't about the images; it's a novel, and they are just illustrations. Without them, the story is still valuable. I don't think Debian is morally obligated to include it; that's not how Debian works. But it shouldn't ban it either, if it follows all the rules we have.

So yes, this is a very serious subject. I think it deserves to be treated carefully and fairly. On the other hand, it doesn't mean every contribution to the discussion must be serious in every respect. Games (and especially visual novels) can and should be part of it as well.

From the outside it looked like you were being trolled which seems to be the conclusion of many.

I'm sure there were trolls involved. But the website went offline after someone reported it to the police, and they were afraid of legal costs. It was definitely not all fun and games. (The site came back up because Nils took it over, including the risk; I gave him some money to cover the hosting costs. Neither of us needed to do anything, but we both felt bad for what had happened.)

The obvious problem with it is that this sort of thing ultimately becomes an emotive issue for many, rather than a consideration as to whether or not something meets the criteria for inclusion.

Well, I'm not against emotion in the discussion, as long as it's not unreasonable. If I think a program is bad for humanity (or just for Debian), I don't want it in Debian. I don't care about the rules in that case. I respect this as an argument from others as well, and I think this was the main (serious) counterpoint we got. But what they care about is child abuse. Research suggests (there is no proof that I am aware of) that this can go down, not up, if games like this one are available. If that wasn't true (and I originally thought it wasn't; I changed my position when I learned this), I would be against including it in Debian.

So it's not that I'm unaware of their concerns, or that I don't care about people. On the contrary: I share their concerns, but think that this game helps their cause. It's similar to how legalizing marijuana or prostitution actually leads to less drug and sex problems. Counter intuitive at first, but if you think about it, quite reasonable.

A lot of the dialogue and the puns don't make sense in English though.

I only played it in German, so I wouldn't know. But I can imagine some of it was impossible to translate, indeed. Some parts were unclear to me as well, because I had never been on KrautChan, and it made several references to it.

I have a feeling that playing UAB is illegal in Australia

I think that is correct. In the USA as well.

I will be going to jail soon after making this post.

Of course not. You played it while you were on holiday in a foreign country, right? Just like I played it while I was in the Netherlands.

a lot of the in-game characters are based upon real people.

Yes, I knew about some, but didn't know any of them. I'm not that familiar with German politics.

Maja is based upon a Dutch girl

Oh, I didn't know the girls were based on real people, too! She does mention being Dutch, but I thought that was just a detail to enrich the story. What happened to her (the real girl) sounds horrible! I wonder what she and her family think about the game; it doesn't actually make people go look for her, so I'd think it should be no problem for them. On the other hand, knowing that you (or your daughter) is being abused in such a game can't feel good...

I still feel quite strongly about this whole thing. Does it show?

All of the girls except for Annemarie Reiter are based upon real living girls from what I understand. Laura Belanova is based upon a former child model called Lera Bugorskaya/Laura B. It's probably not a good idea to put her name into a search engine.

Mara's father is apparently a diplomat and regularly sends out cease and desist letters to sites about her. Over the last five years or more there has emerged a strange cult dedicated to almost worshipping her which is how she ended up in the game.

Along with that guy who stalked her in her school, another guy supposedly went to Den Haag and followed her around for a little bit but he didn't take any photos so nobody believed him. After this all came to light and some sites were shut down by the police, some funny fellow sent Mara's father screenies from UAB of Maja smoking funny cigarettes while naked which must have cheered him up.

As a result she's not allowed to go on the internet for the next 6 years or so except to do school projects, and her school now has extra security guards or something like that. I don't think she's in any real danger, however, considering how long her fan club has been around for.

> But the website went offline after someone reported it to the police, and they were afraid of legal costs. It was definitely not all fun and games. (The site came back up because Nils took it over, including the risk; I gave him some money to cover the hosting costs.

I never knew that much. Thanks for propping it up. Strangely enough it seems to have gone down again. I think it's good that you take these principles seriously though considering what's at stake.

> If I think a program is bad for humanity (or just for Debian), I don't want it in Debian.

How did Systemd end up in Jessie when everyone seems to hate it?

I haven't been here in a while either, welcome back never-the-less.

Funny though I know you from another game as Wee-Lamm ^.~

I'm always having computer problems. Just a month or so ago, my monitor died. Now I have a new one...bigger and shinier than ever.

@Lady Carrot, now I'm intrigued ... by what name there would I recognize you?

@Carrie, who says it's only us dudes that are attracted to ...
Ooops, shiny thing.

@Shevek,
[Q]While we're on the topic of visual novels:[/Q]

Though it makes for interesting conversation, I don't remember mentioning graphic novels in my opening post.

@MM, you do know you can edit a post to put more into it right? It just seems a little weird to comment 3 times in a row when you can put it all into a list.

Yes, but felt answering 3 different people on different sub-topics, deserved a separate message for each one.

I don't remember mentioning graphic novels in my opening post.

You didn't mention them, but I did. They would have deserved a separate thread, I suppose, but my original comment about them didn't.

How did Systemd end up in Jessie when everyone seems to hate it?

Not everyone does. There are some very vocal opponents, and some very hardworking proponents. You can get almost anything in Debian if you're willing to do the work.