Reply to Re: Visual novels
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It was being spread around on other sites
Yes, they made a much bigger deal out of it than I expected. What surprised me most was what was basically the following:
A: There is nudity in it! We can't accept that in Debian!
B: Sounds fair; we'll remove all the nudity and keep the story.
A: That doesn't change anything! Nudity is bad!
B: Did you even listen?
how objectively you treated the whole thing considering what the game ultimately entails
I very much like freedom of speech. Pedophilia is a serious issue and I don't think there is an easy solution to it. But shutting down the discussion is certainly not helping. Of course there are limits; making child pornography with real footage of actual children being abused should obviously be forbidden. I think there's also not much discussion about manipulating non-abusive material to make it porn. Making realistic-looking animations where no children are involved (including using footage of children that have now grown up and agree to it) is open for debate, in my opinion; that is not legal in the Netherlands and I'm not sure if I agree with that. Obviously unrealistic depictions such as cartoons and this visual novel should definitely be legal as far as I'm concerned, but aren't in several countries. Because of this, I think it is very reasonable for Debian to keep those images out. This is easily possible, because the story isn't about the images; it's a novel, and they are just illustrations. Without them, the story is still valuable. I don't think Debian is morally obligated to include it; that's not how Debian works. But it shouldn't ban it either, if it follows all the rules we have.
So yes, this is a very serious subject. I think it deserves to be treated carefully and fairly. On the other hand, it doesn't mean every contribution to the discussion must be serious in every respect. Games (and especially visual novels) can and should be part of it as well.
From the outside it looked like you were being trolled which seems to be the conclusion of many.
I'm sure there were trolls involved. But the website went offline after someone reported it to the police, and they were afraid of legal costs. It was definitely not all fun and games. (The site came back up because Nils took it over, including the risk; I gave him some money to cover the hosting costs. Neither of us needed to do anything, but we both felt bad for what had happened.)
The obvious problem with it is that this sort of thing ultimately becomes an emotive issue for many, rather than a consideration as to whether or not something meets the criteria for inclusion.
Well, I'm not against emotion in the discussion, as long as it's not unreasonable. If I think a program is bad for humanity (or just for Debian), I don't want it in Debian. I don't care about the rules in that case. I respect this as an argument from others as well, and I think this was the main (serious) counterpoint we got. But what they care about is child abuse. Research suggests (there is no proof that I am aware of) that this can go down, not up, if games like this one are available. If that wasn't true (and I originally thought it wasn't; I changed my position when I learned this), I would be against including it in Debian.
So it's not that I'm unaware of their concerns, or that I don't care about people. On the contrary: I share their concerns, but think that this game helps their cause. It's similar to how legalizing marijuana or prostitution actually leads to less drug and sex problems. Counter intuitive at first, but if you think about it, quite reasonable.
A lot of the dialogue and the puns don't make sense in English though.
I only played it in German, so I wouldn't know. But I can imagine some of it was impossible to translate, indeed. Some parts were unclear to me as well, because I had never been on KrautChan, and it made several references to it.
I have a feeling that playing UAB is illegal in Australia
I think that is correct. In the USA as well.
I will be going to jail soon after making this post.
Of course not. You played it while you were on holiday in a foreign country, right? Just like I played it while I was in the Netherlands.
a lot of the in-game characters are based upon real people.
Yes, I knew about some, but didn't know any of them. I'm not that familiar with German politics.
Maja is based upon a Dutch girl
Oh, I didn't know the girls were based on real people, too! She does mention being Dutch, but I thought that was just a detail to enrich the story. What happened to her (the real girl) sounds horrible! I wonder what she and her family think about the game; it doesn't actually make people go look for her, so I'd think it should be no problem for them. On the other hand, knowing that you (or your daughter) is being abused in such a game can't feel good...
I still feel quite strongly about this whole thing. Does it show?
Yes, they made a much bigger deal out of it than I expected. What surprised me most was what was basically the following:
A: There is nudity in it! We can't accept that in Debian!
B: Sounds fair; we'll remove all the nudity and keep the story.
A: That doesn't change anything! Nudity is bad!
B: Did you even listen?
how objectively you treated the whole thing considering what the game ultimately entails
I very much like freedom of speech. Pedophilia is a serious issue and I don't think there is an easy solution to it. But shutting down the discussion is certainly not helping. Of course there are limits; making child pornography with real footage of actual children being abused should obviously be forbidden. I think there's also not much discussion about manipulating non-abusive material to make it porn. Making realistic-looking animations where no children are involved (including using footage of children that have now grown up and agree to it) is open for debate, in my opinion; that is not legal in the Netherlands and I'm not sure if I agree with that. Obviously unrealistic depictions such as cartoons and this visual novel should definitely be legal as far as I'm concerned, but aren't in several countries. Because of this, I think it is very reasonable for Debian to keep those images out. This is easily possible, because the story isn't about the images; it's a novel, and they are just illustrations. Without them, the story is still valuable. I don't think Debian is morally obligated to include it; that's not how Debian works. But it shouldn't ban it either, if it follows all the rules we have.
So yes, this is a very serious subject. I think it deserves to be treated carefully and fairly. On the other hand, it doesn't mean every contribution to the discussion must be serious in every respect. Games (and especially visual novels) can and should be part of it as well.
From the outside it looked like you were being trolled which seems to be the conclusion of many.
I'm sure there were trolls involved. But the website went offline after someone reported it to the police, and they were afraid of legal costs. It was definitely not all fun and games. (The site came back up because Nils took it over, including the risk; I gave him some money to cover the hosting costs. Neither of us needed to do anything, but we both felt bad for what had happened.)
The obvious problem with it is that this sort of thing ultimately becomes an emotive issue for many, rather than a consideration as to whether or not something meets the criteria for inclusion.
Well, I'm not against emotion in the discussion, as long as it's not unreasonable. If I think a program is bad for humanity (or just for Debian), I don't want it in Debian. I don't care about the rules in that case. I respect this as an argument from others as well, and I think this was the main (serious) counterpoint we got. But what they care about is child abuse. Research suggests (there is no proof that I am aware of) that this can go down, not up, if games like this one are available. If that wasn't true (and I originally thought it wasn't; I changed my position when I learned this), I would be against including it in Debian.
So it's not that I'm unaware of their concerns, or that I don't care about people. On the contrary: I share their concerns, but think that this game helps their cause. It's similar to how legalizing marijuana or prostitution actually leads to less drug and sex problems. Counter intuitive at first, but if you think about it, quite reasonable.
A lot of the dialogue and the puns don't make sense in English though.
I only played it in German, so I wouldn't know. But I can imagine some of it was impossible to translate, indeed. Some parts were unclear to me as well, because I had never been on KrautChan, and it made several references to it.
I have a feeling that playing UAB is illegal in Australia
I think that is correct. In the USA as well.
I will be going to jail soon after making this post.
Of course not. You played it while you were on holiday in a foreign country, right? Just like I played it while I was in the Netherlands.
a lot of the in-game characters are based upon real people.
Yes, I knew about some, but didn't know any of them. I'm not that familiar with German politics.
Maja is based upon a Dutch girl
Oh, I didn't know the girls were based on real people, too! She does mention being Dutch, but I thought that was just a detail to enrich the story. What happened to her (the real girl) sounds horrible! I wonder what she and her family think about the game; it doesn't actually make people go look for her, so I'd think it should be no problem for them. On the other hand, knowing that you (or your daughter) is being abused in such a game can't feel good...
I still feel quite strongly about this whole thing. Does it show?
