Reply to Re: Human Rights
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You do a good word shevek. I liking your posts.
Thanks!
Most of people here are not used ( and are disgusted ) to watch fabulous people make out in public
That is a different thing from the majority wanting to make it illegal. In a democracy, they can do that and that's a shortcoming of the system (in a democracy made up of two very different cultures, the minority simply has no influence at all; that is not a fair system).
But I would be surprised if that is the case here: even though a majority may be disgusted by it, if they also say that there should be equal rights, I'm pretty sure they will not want to actually ban it.
That is, unless you live in a country like Zimbabwe: a friend of mine is from there, and he told me that a majority there considers homosexuality a (bad) life choice, and they do want it to be illegal (and obviously they do not want equal rights). (I'm not sure if they did make it illegal, but I know other countries did for this reason.)
The contradiction with your statements is that on the one hand you say they deserve equal rights, but on the other hand you say that when they don't have them, nothing should be done about that. Why do you say they should have equal rights if you don't think anything must be changed when they don't get those rights?
they also must understand what the majority here can tolerate
What country do you live in? Did the majority make anti-discrimination laws, like most (all?) western countries? Did they make pro-discrimination laws, like Russia? The laws show what the majority decided they want (assuming you have a democracy, which isn't true for the US or Russia at least). If there is a law against discrimination of LGBT people, I'm sure people can tolerate them: they wrote into law that they can.
LGBT rights? They don't give a duck about it.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. They may also just have learned to keep quiet to avoid trouble. That doesn't mean they are happy with the situation.
LGBT protests here are something that is used for political purposes.
Yes, that's what all protests are for. I don't understand your point?
if something is normal in country 1, and not normal in country 2, that doesn't mean country 2 is abnormal. People are different, cultures are different. There is no right and wrong here. There is only what people want, and what they don't.
That depends on how you see rights. The universal declaration of human rights says that countries are not allowed to restrict some rights of their people. For example, in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to stop being a Muslim. You can say "that's what those people want, so the individuals in that country have to live by that rule", or you can say "individuals should always be allowed that; a country cannot take away that right" (as the UDHR does).
So if you agree with the UDHR, then there are situations where countries are wrong, and Saudi Arabia is one of them. No matter how normal they think it is, they are not allowed to punish people for changing their religion.
Should both genders have equal opportunities? Yes. ... [but] they never will ... And there is nothing wrong with it
That's a contradiction. If they should have equal opportunities, then there logically is something wrong when they don't have them.
Also, it is historically incorrect that things never change. There have been many things that used to be very different and that no longer are. With more protests and such, it is entirely reasonable to expect that total equality will be achieved at some point. It used to be unthinkable that women would have the right to vote, yet they do now (in most places). That's just one example.
if a person has enough ambition, it can acomplish anything, whatever the gender.
That is obviously incorrect. Do you really think that everyone who doesn't win a gold medal in the olympics could have won if they just had more ambition? Of course not; for almost everyone, there are obstacles to winning that medal that are simply impossible to overcome, no matter how hard they try.
The idea "I can do anything if I try hard enough" is good for giving yourself motivation. It's not true, but if it works to get you motivated, that's fine. But don't turn it into "you shouldn't complain about unfair treatment because you can do anything if you try hard enough". Because it isn't true, so you must not apply it to others. Especially not when those others have fewer opportunities. Because then you are oppressing them.
who see men and women equally on every level, and they should be treated the same way, which is just absurd and untrue
Can you give examples where they should be treated differently by the law? It obvious that people may treat each other differently based on their gender (for example, straight men consider women as potential partners, but not other men). But that's not something that the law regulates. When should the law say "this only applies to women"?
Life is ducking unfair, deal with it.
Without rules, everything is unfair. Countries make rules to deal with that. I thought everyone agreed that good rules make the country more fair for its citizens. But you seem to disagree with that? You think when something is unfair, that's fine and doesn't need to be fixed?
In your entire reply, I sense that you do not believe anything will ever change. That is historically incorrect: things change all the time. If you become active in a political movement (whether it's a party or a protest organization such as Greenpeace), you can be a part of choosing which direction the change is. The smallest activity on that front is of course to vote. But depending on where you live, that is likely not enough. For example, in the US, I would strongly suggest that you get involved in efforts to end the corruption. Until that is done, voting is basically pointless.
[trans] Don't hide yourself verbally, but respect other people with whom you share your life everyday.
So a trans man with a beard should not go into the women's toilet because it would freak everyone out, but also not into the men's toilet because some people say he's not a (real) man? In other words, you think it's acceptable that trans people should be forbidden to go to public toilets? Do you have any idea how degrading it is when society tells you that? The message to them is: "We care more about other people's made up fears than about your ability to live a normal life." Does it surprise you that continuously getting that message in different ways, every day, drives people to suicide? Is that an acceptable side effect from the policy you suggest ("let's not inconvenience the majority")?
if a fabulous couple is doing fabulous stuff in public, it's the onlooker's fault for watching and being offended/disgusted by it.
I don't agree with that. I think it is totally acceptable to limit sexual behavior in public. But if you make it illegal, it shouldn't be limited to LGBT people; it's either acceptable for both, or it's not acceptable for anyone.
i'd say the move to being openly fabulous is a huge step and it's good they made that.
Absolutely! Just knowing a single LGBT person makes people a lot less likely to hate the group as a whole. Of course that only works when they are aware that the person is LGBT. This is also why it is so important to have famous people come out; lots of people know them, so they have much more impact.
the feminism most see these days are more a hate-movement with people using #KillAllMen and shit and are at war with even eachother.
I'm sure they exist, but I haven't seen them at all. Which was my point in an earlier post: if you don't go looking for them, you are unlikely to encounter them. They are mostly talking to each other. Especially the ones we talked about before, who say they hate people not in their group.
Fill me in enlightened one.
I'd be happy to, but your posts haven't made enough sense to give you a substantive reply. I already replied to your original statements, and your reply was "yawn". Until you explain where you disagree with me, or what you don't understand, I won't be able to tell you anything.
Thanks!
Most of people here are not used ( and are disgusted ) to watch fabulous people make out in public
That is a different thing from the majority wanting to make it illegal. In a democracy, they can do that and that's a shortcoming of the system (in a democracy made up of two very different cultures, the minority simply has no influence at all; that is not a fair system).
But I would be surprised if that is the case here: even though a majority may be disgusted by it, if they also say that there should be equal rights, I'm pretty sure they will not want to actually ban it.
That is, unless you live in a country like Zimbabwe: a friend of mine is from there, and he told me that a majority there considers homosexuality a (bad) life choice, and they do want it to be illegal (and obviously they do not want equal rights). (I'm not sure if they did make it illegal, but I know other countries did for this reason.)
The contradiction with your statements is that on the one hand you say they deserve equal rights, but on the other hand you say that when they don't have them, nothing should be done about that. Why do you say they should have equal rights if you don't think anything must be changed when they don't get those rights?
they also must understand what the majority here can tolerate
What country do you live in? Did the majority make anti-discrimination laws, like most (all?) western countries? Did they make pro-discrimination laws, like Russia? The laws show what the majority decided they want (assuming you have a democracy, which isn't true for the US or Russia at least). If there is a law against discrimination of LGBT people, I'm sure people can tolerate them: they wrote into law that they can.
LGBT rights? They don't give a duck about it.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. They may also just have learned to keep quiet to avoid trouble. That doesn't mean they are happy with the situation.
LGBT protests here are something that is used for political purposes.
Yes, that's what all protests are for. I don't understand your point?
if something is normal in country 1, and not normal in country 2, that doesn't mean country 2 is abnormal. People are different, cultures are different. There is no right and wrong here. There is only what people want, and what they don't.
That depends on how you see rights. The universal declaration of human rights says that countries are not allowed to restrict some rights of their people. For example, in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to stop being a Muslim. You can say "that's what those people want, so the individuals in that country have to live by that rule", or you can say "individuals should always be allowed that; a country cannot take away that right" (as the UDHR does).
So if you agree with the UDHR, then there are situations where countries are wrong, and Saudi Arabia is one of them. No matter how normal they think it is, they are not allowed to punish people for changing their religion.
Should both genders have equal opportunities? Yes. ... [but] they never will ... And there is nothing wrong with it
That's a contradiction. If they should have equal opportunities, then there logically is something wrong when they don't have them.
Also, it is historically incorrect that things never change. There have been many things that used to be very different and that no longer are. With more protests and such, it is entirely reasonable to expect that total equality will be achieved at some point. It used to be unthinkable that women would have the right to vote, yet they do now (in most places). That's just one example.
if a person has enough ambition, it can acomplish anything, whatever the gender.
That is obviously incorrect. Do you really think that everyone who doesn't win a gold medal in the olympics could have won if they just had more ambition? Of course not; for almost everyone, there are obstacles to winning that medal that are simply impossible to overcome, no matter how hard they try.
The idea "I can do anything if I try hard enough" is good for giving yourself motivation. It's not true, but if it works to get you motivated, that's fine. But don't turn it into "you shouldn't complain about unfair treatment because you can do anything if you try hard enough". Because it isn't true, so you must not apply it to others. Especially not when those others have fewer opportunities. Because then you are oppressing them.
who see men and women equally on every level, and they should be treated the same way, which is just absurd and untrue
Can you give examples where they should be treated differently by the law? It obvious that people may treat each other differently based on their gender (for example, straight men consider women as potential partners, but not other men). But that's not something that the law regulates. When should the law say "this only applies to women"?
Life is ducking unfair, deal with it.
Without rules, everything is unfair. Countries make rules to deal with that. I thought everyone agreed that good rules make the country more fair for its citizens. But you seem to disagree with that? You think when something is unfair, that's fine and doesn't need to be fixed?
In your entire reply, I sense that you do not believe anything will ever change. That is historically incorrect: things change all the time. If you become active in a political movement (whether it's a party or a protest organization such as Greenpeace), you can be a part of choosing which direction the change is. The smallest activity on that front is of course to vote. But depending on where you live, that is likely not enough. For example, in the US, I would strongly suggest that you get involved in efforts to end the corruption. Until that is done, voting is basically pointless.
[trans] Don't hide yourself verbally, but respect other people with whom you share your life everyday.
So a trans man with a beard should not go into the women's toilet because it would freak everyone out, but also not into the men's toilet because some people say he's not a (real) man? In other words, you think it's acceptable that trans people should be forbidden to go to public toilets? Do you have any idea how degrading it is when society tells you that? The message to them is: "We care more about other people's made up fears than about your ability to live a normal life." Does it surprise you that continuously getting that message in different ways, every day, drives people to suicide? Is that an acceptable side effect from the policy you suggest ("let's not inconvenience the majority")?
if a fabulous couple is doing fabulous stuff in public, it's the onlooker's fault for watching and being offended/disgusted by it.
I don't agree with that. I think it is totally acceptable to limit sexual behavior in public. But if you make it illegal, it shouldn't be limited to LGBT people; it's either acceptable for both, or it's not acceptable for anyone.
i'd say the move to being openly fabulous is a huge step and it's good they made that.
Absolutely! Just knowing a single LGBT person makes people a lot less likely to hate the group as a whole. Of course that only works when they are aware that the person is LGBT. This is also why it is so important to have famous people come out; lots of people know them, so they have much more impact.
the feminism most see these days are more a hate-movement with people using #KillAllMen and shit and are at war with even eachother.
I'm sure they exist, but I haven't seen them at all. Which was my point in an earlier post: if you don't go looking for them, you are unlikely to encounter them. They are mostly talking to each other. Especially the ones we talked about before, who say they hate people not in their group.
Fill me in enlightened one.
I'd be happy to, but your posts haven't made enough sense to give you a substantive reply. I already replied to your original statements, and your reply was "yawn". Until you explain where you disagree with me, or what you don't understand, I won't be able to tell you anything.
