Reply to Re: the REAL dink source chat- the second part
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illusivefing> 
<Merlin_> for another month
<Eldron> but we'll need to know where to start then
<jameson> Merlin_: I wish that was true for me, too
<illusivefing> i dunno, now that i think about it
<illusivefing> maybe i CAN help with the source code cleanup
<Merlin_> jameson: I wish it would STAY true
<Merlin_> well, illusive fing - you're on IRC all the time, arent you?
<illusivefing> pretty much
<Merlin_> or was that Eldron
<illusivefing> i have nothing else to do all day
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> when my comp is on Im on irc
<Merlin_> I *wish CVS was up
<Merlin_> hang on, let me chech again
<Merlin_> it says
<Merlin_> "This is a restricted shell account"
<illusivefing> sucks
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<jameson> Merlin_: I'll set up CVS on signine.yi.org.
<illusivefing> does it make any difference if you use visual c++ or dev c++?
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> atm yes
<illusivefing> +sigh+
<Merlin_> We'll try to fix that
<Merlin_> brb
<illusivefing> all i have is intro edition of visual c++
* Merlin_ is away: I'm busy
<illusivefing> and devc++
<jameson> BTW, I have another issue I think we should discuss, namely the future of TDP licensing. Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. Some people have suggested to move to a copyleft license, though, to ensure that no one "hijacks" their extensions.
<Eldron> actually, thats true
<illusivefing> brb
<Eldron> we cant keep tdp with seths license..
<jameson> We can, but we'll have to get rid of the files not covered by it.
<Eldron> didn't we?
<jameson> Technically, yes. But they're still required for compilation.
<Eldron> not really
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> actuall yes
<jameson> I put up a separate zip file which includes them so people can download and install it on top of CVS.
<Eldron> but we'll just have to remove the stuff connecting them
<jameson> Yes. I don't think this will be a major issue.
<illusivefing> ok i'm back
<illusivefing> my mom lied
<illusivefing> there's no wedding shower this afternoon
<jameson> Maybe using something more modern like Subversion or arch would be a possibility as well, but I'd like not to install these on a public machine I have to administrate, as they're inherently more prone to security exploits...
* Merlin_ is back (gone 00:09:19)
<RustedSorrow> WHAT DID i MISS?
<illusivefing> nothing important
<RustedSorrow> good
<RustedSorrow> i wanna ask something
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Merlin_> ok
<RustedSorrow> now please shutup
<illusivefing> yessuhmassah
<RustedSorrow> if someone makes some great midification to the engine
<RustedSorrow> it is put in the dink project
<RustedSorrow> right?
<Merlin_> maybe
<RustedSorrow> ok let's say it is
<RustedSorrow> now some other guy makes something else cool
<Merlin_> that's more of a probably
<RustedSorrow> and will it those to be combined to one or two seperate things?
<illusivefing> +going through second liter of caffeine+
<RustedSorrow> hello?
<Merlin_> can you give us an example?
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Eldron> well
<RustedSorrow> the dink project
<Eldron> if those guys were both playing with the cvs of tdp
<RustedSorrow> ???
<Merlin_> and....?
<Eldron> and if their modifications to the source were well made..
<illusivefing> he's saying if someone has a great idea and it becomes a project, and another person has a great idea to add to the project, would they be combined into one project file?
<RustedSorrow> yes!
<Merlin_> ohhhh!!
<illusivefing> i would think they would
<RustedSorrow> plese let me talk!
<Merlin_> probably
<illusivefing> lol
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Please continue.
<RustedSorrow> i think there should be one file that is updating time and time again
<Merlin_> that's what CVS is for
<RustedSorrow> like yesterday it was just mp3 support and tpday it's mp3 support and something else new
<RustedSorrow> today
<illusivefing> i think there should be a safe copy of the engine also, a stable one for each new generation of versions
<Eldron> we'll
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> that'll be like an 'release'
<Eldron> but the cvs will be updated daily
<illusivefing> more like a backup is what i'm thinking of...like
<Merlin_> once it goes though testing
<jameson> We're using something called a 'revision control system' (it sounds like no one here is familiar with this, which is why I should probably explain it).
<Merlin_> yes, like an old version
<RustedSorrow> ok let me talk again
<Merlin_> i thought it was CVS?
<jameson> A revision control system, such as CVS, stores all old version of a program.
<jameson> Furthermore, it allows more than one person to work on a program at the same time, and tries to merge changes done by people concurrently.
<illusivefing> that's good then
<Merlin_> it backups into nightly tarbals
<RustedSorrow> do like this "the dink engine with ALL the new stuff"
<jameson> This doesn't work perfectly, of course, and sometimes requires user interaction if changes overlap.
<Eldron> rusted, well, it'll be mostly improved stuff with the same base..
<RustedSorrow> "dink engine wiht only an exact feature
<Eldron> it'll work the same, but it'll have more features
<RustedSorrow> but that's not whatt i want to say?
<Merlin_> +looks outisde+ "ahhhh!" +Merlin_ is blinded+
<RustedSorrow> will it be one uploading file or 100 of files with diffrient features!
<illusivefing> is merlin becoming vampirish as well?
<Merlin_> would you like me to show you?
<illusivefing> sure
<Merlin_> +evil slurping sounds+
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<illusivefing> let's answer rusted's question
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> yes master
<RustedSorrow> go suck a dog
<illusivefing> it's yessuhmassah to you
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> 's b;ood
<Merlin_> Rs, is that what you do in your spare time?
<Merlin_> do you like dogs?
<RustedSorrow> it was like a command lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_>
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Revision managers abstract over files.
<Eldron> rusted, there'll always be a latest 'official' release..
<illusivefing> so what else has not been covered in the last 2 1/2 hours?
<Beuc> I am back eventually, and I fastly read the log
<jameson> RustedSorrow: This means that you don't (normally, you can do that if you want to) update one file, but, rather, merge all of your changes into the main tree.
<Merlin_> And, there will always be a development release
<RustedSorrow> like one file wiht all features?
<Merlin_> Like, nightly tarballs of the CVS tree
<jameson> It also means that it does not matter at all whether you have your source code split over hundreds or files or everything in one big, ugly file.
<Eldron> rusted, as long as you have the latest release you'll be able to run most dmods
<RustedSorrow> not a dmod an engine~
<illusivefing> that's another thing we need to do eventually, argue to jameson why we can't just rebuild dinkc
<Merlin_> well, it works as it is now
<Eldron> dink is opensourced, if someone is good enough to use an advanced scripting language, then he might aswell modify the source instead.. thats the main argument for keeping dinkc as it is
<Beuc> Well, will we know more about what to do tomorrow explicitely?
<Eldron> internally we can improve dinkc in speed and structure, but externally it should work the same..
<jameson> Seeing that we probably should wait for Beuc before discussing the licensing stuff (and that we don't seem to have anything else on the agenda, I believe), we might as well discuss DinkC...
<illusivefing> and if we rebuilt the language, then older dmods would not run unless the code was somehow translated
<RustedSorrow> 00:10 at my place
<Merlin_> where are you, the netherlands?
<jameson> Eldron: Modifying the source to accomodate the needs of a dmod and thus creating a locally specialised version does not make much sense.
<jameson> It means that all improvements added to the engine after the branch will be lost, unless considerable effort is put into keeping it up to sync.
<Merlin_> Well, we could include an engine check to check for the dink.exe in the d-mod directory
<jameson> As such, it is much more appropriate to work with scripts.
<Eldron> but dinkc can still be powerful enough
<RustedSorrow> dinkc is a mistery to me
*** Signoff: Beuc (QUIT: Download Gaim [(Link: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])
<Eldron> rusted.. dinkc has a good structure, and it CAN be given more power
<Eldron> but we cant change the shape of it
<jameson> From what I've heard, DinkC is essentially an untyped assembly language, triggered by events in the main engine.
<illusivefing> and nothing is wrong with that, jameson
*** Beuc (~Sylvain@=B1caq-508-76-614-101.ppp.tiscali.fr) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Eldron> it works well with the game
<illusivefing> it works just fine as it is, structually
<Eldron> but it lacks the features
<RustedSorrow> i think dinkc is a nice language
<Eldron> no one has ever complained about dinkc in how its structured..
<illusivefing> very user-friendly compared to an actual programming language
<RustedSorrow> :::question:::
<RustedSorrow> was it hard to you to learn dinkc?
<Merlin_> +turns on pocket pc and plays solitare+
<Eldron> rusted, well, it was C
<RustedSorrow> ?
<illusivefing> not for me
<Eldron> meaning, its not complicated.
<Beuc> I am back now, I do not know whether my posts were uploaded when I came back 5 min ago
<Eldron> its event-driven and has a bunch of functions..
<Eldron> nothing more complicated than that
<jameson> OK, so what should we do about licensing?
<RustedSorrow> what licensing
<jameson> TDP licensing.
<RustedSorrow> if you are a good person you don't need licensing
<illusivefing> this is the part where i step aside and let you deal with this
<illusivefing>
<jameson> Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. However, I rather like the idea of copylefting it...
<Eldron> well, we'll remove those files we cant use and then switch it to something more fitting..
<jameson> RustedSorrow: You need licensing so people are allowed to use your source code
<RustedSorrow> why
<jameson> Question is: Should we stay BSD-ish, or copyleft it?
<RustedSorrow> can you just let them?
<Beuc> And not abuse of it.
<Merlin_> If we include those copyrighted files, we're not supposed to use SF
<Eldron> we dont need the copyrighted files anyway
<illusivefing> what exactly is copyleft?
<Eldron> they are not crucial
<Beuc> RS: the "why" is mainly to avoid emailing people each time anybody want to use the project.
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes, you can let them. But you need to write down what you want to allow them to do, or otherwise they'll violate copyright law.
<RustedSorrow> pffft
<Merlin_> well, could we rewrite them?
<RustedSorrow> stupid
<Merlin_> or just use a new format?
<RustedSorrow> are you a corporation?
<illusivefing> or...even better yet, we could ask seth to rewrite it
<RustedSorrow> are you gonna punish them for violating?
<Beuc> Copyleft is a way to use copyright to keep a project free for everyone.
<jameson> The copyrighted files could be rewritten pretty straightforwardly, as far as I can tell (and should be, to allow a more modular (and portable) approach)
<illusivefing> oh okay, that's cool
<Merlin_> hehe seth... you're kidding?
<illusivefing> lol yes i am
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> not to say that it's not worth a shot though
<illusivefing> though maybe that would be pushing it
<RustedSorrow> uh... .
<RustedSorrow> JAN 5 - NEW PHOTOS of dink author scratcher.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 31 - new surveys that totally suck.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 13 - another funny addition of dink surveys with the one and only phoenix, check it out now! i said now, pinko!
<RustedSorrow> DEC 12 - ive got it! update info! whenever i get new pictures or surveys or links or whhhhhhhatever, i will put it here so that you homeys know whats going on. the site has a new layout and graphics and such, if you havent noticed already. i know it is pretty terrible... but i dont care that much. anyway...
<RustedSorrow> NEW PHOTOS of dink smallwood creater seth, and dinker tal the templar.
<RustedSorrow> NEW SURVEYS of quite a few dinkers as well, the most recent claiming to be a prophet.
<RustedSorrow> something is wrong with the counter... i dont know what... it will stay as is for now.
<RustedSorrow> -josh
<jameson> The difference betwen BSDish licenses and copyleft licenses (i.e., the (L)GPL, for all practical purposes) is that the latter require anyone who modifies the source code to either keep the changes to him/herself, or, whenever that person publishes a binary version, to make the source code available on request.
<RustedSorrow> what??
<RustedSorrow> sorry guys!
<RustedSorrow> very very sorry
<illusivefing> i'ts okay
<illusivefing> as long as it was an accident
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> i pressed ctrl v
<Merlin_> it was, right?
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> are we waiting for something?
<RustedSorrow> no
<illusivefing> yes
<Beuc> Yep, vote on licencing
<Merlin_> ooookay
<RustedSorrow> but i can do a kickflip
<Merlin_> oh
<illusivefing> i say copyleft
<illusivefing> lol
<Beuc> GPL prevents people from taking our jobs and conceil the source code like Seth like (with the issues we know).
<Merlin_> I go copyleft
<jameson> So, to make this more concrete, right now it's possible that TDP could come up with a great and grand number of improvements and clean-ups. Then, some person comes along, takes TDP, builds the best D-Mod ever, using some extensions to TDP, but only releases the specific version of TDP as a binary for PPC Amiga-OS. With a GPL-ish license, he would be required to release the sources to the modified TDP interpreter.
<illusivefing> brb i'm making a burger
<Beuc> illusivefing: (Link: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html)http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html
<Merlin_> what about the QPL?
<Merlin_> or Mozilla?
<RustedSorrow> WAIT!
<Merlin_> how long?
<RustedSorrow> why do we need the frekin' cupyright!
<RustedSorrow> i mean do you need it?
<Merlin_> somebody else explain it
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes.
<RustedSorrow> i wouldn't
<Eldron> copyleft is good
<RustedSorrow> is it for you or for seth?
<Beuc> For our project. Seth's licence is already defined.
<RustedSorrow> so
<Beuc> So anybody can make his project and conceil the code, but nobody can use ours like that
<illusivefing> is it possible for us to write a copyright on tdp?
<Beuc> Yes, our changes are copyrighted.
<jameson> illusivefing: We're talking about two separate issues here-- copyright and licensing are not the same.
<Beuc> "PORTIONS" copyright Seth.
<jameson> Beuc is exactly right about the copyright.
<illusivefing> license***
<illusivefing> bleh
<jameson> We can modify the license if it is compatible with the original one, i.e. if we don't violate the original one.
<RustedSorrow> bah!
<illusivefing> <<-- sleepy
<illusivefing> that's good
<Merlin_> what about the MPL?
<RustedSorrow> what about it/
<jameson> Thanks to Seth's changes to his license prior to releasing it, it should be compatible with ours.
<jameson> Merlin_: I don't know the details of the MPL or the QPL.
<Beuc> The MPL is incompatible with the GPL and prevents us from using any GPL software.
<Beuc> QPL only alllow changes as patches.
<jameson> I'm quite happy with the GPL, as it allows me to re-use my own code (which some other people have contributed to).
<RustedSorrow> M.A.S.H.-many ather stupid horses
*** XingXingXuum (XingXingXu@=F6w36n2wnm40b4053.telia.com) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> LONG excerpt conning
<Merlin_> MOZILLA PUBLIC LICENSE
<Merlin_> Version 1.1
<Merlin_> 1. Definitions.
<Merlin_> 1.0.1. "Commercial Use" means distribution or otherwise making the Covered Code available to a third party.
<Merlin_> 1.1. ''Contributor'' means each entity that creates or contributes to the creation of Modifications.
<Merlin_> 1.2. ''Contributor Version'' means the combination of the Original Code, prior Modifications used by a Contributor, and the Modifications made by that particular Contributor.
<Merlin_> 1.3. ''Covered Code'' means the Original Code or Modifications or the combination of the Original Code and Modifications, in each case including portions thereof.
<Beuc> Do not post the entire licence, we can get it online.
<Merlin_> 1.4. ''Electronic Distribution Mechanism'' means a mechanism generally accepted in the software development community for the electronic transfer of data.
<Merlin_> 1.5. ''Executable'' means Covered Code in any form other than Source Code.
<Merlin_> 1.6. ''Initial Developer'' means the individual or entity identified as the Initial Developer in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A.
<Merlin_> 1.7. ''Larger Work'' means a work which combines Covered Code or portions thereof with code not governed by the terms of this License.
<Merlin_> 1.8. ''License'' means this document.
<Merlin_> 1.8.1. "Licensable" means having the right to grant, to the maximum extent possible, whether at the time of the initial grant or subsequently acquired, any and all of the rights conveyed herein.
<Merlin_> 1.9. ''Modifications'' means any addition to or deletion from the substance or structure of either the Original Code or any previous Modifications. When Covered Code is released as a series of files, a Modification is:
<Merlin_> A. Any addition to or deletion from the contents of a file containing Original Code or previous Modifications.
<RustedSorrow> ooo
<Merlin_> B. Any new file that contains any part of the Original Code or previous Modifications.
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> 1.10. ''Original Code'' means Source Code of computer software code which is described in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A as Original Code, and which, at th
<Merlin_> want more?
<Merlin_> he he
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> okay
<illusivefing> all i really care to know is: is that good?
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> i din't read anything
<Beuc> (Link: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html)http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html for a licence list
<illusivefing> same here
<RustedSorrow> WAIT! guys!
<RustedSorrow> let's leave the law sutff to those who know it
<jameson> These are only definitions, and don't tell us anything about the license itself. We'd have to read up on it in detail to judge whether it's useful.
<XingXingXuum> Would this be a discussion about the Dink Smallwood Source? If so, why are you talking about licenses?
<illusivefing> i'm not going to mess with that because i know little to nothing about licensing
<jameson> Question is: Is anyone uncomfortable with moving to the GPL as soon as we got rid of the files not covered by Seth's license (which, IIRC, would be a requirement)?
<illusivefing> this would be
<Merlin_> nope
<Beuc> Because we want to protect our work from misuse.
<illusivefing> no
<Beuc> neither do i
<RustedSorrow> so
<Merlin_> now, the LGPL or GPL?
<RustedSorrow> """topic change''''
<Eldron> gpl sounds fine
<XingXingXuum> Why do you even want to move to GPL? That license is a bit strict.
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<illusivefing> what's the difference?
<illusivefing> lol
<illusivefing> wait, don't answer that
<Beuc> LGPL would allow to link our work iin proprietary software.
<illusivefing> answer this: which one protects us more?
<Merlin_> lmao
<jameson> The difference is rather important...
<Beuc> too late
<illusivefing>
<Beuc> The GPL protects us more. LGPL is meant for special cases.
<Merlin_> +brings pillow to chair+
<jameson> The LGPL would allow people to distribute binary modifications which are required to run their D-Mods and which must be loaded into a sufficiently prepared (but LGPL'd) version of TDP.
<illusivefing> gpl sounds good to me then
<XingXingXuum> This is killing me already.
<illusivefing> wait...lgpl might actually be useful
<Beuc> In which case?
<illusivefing> in the case that people want to patch the engine to run their dmod
<RustedSorrow> hey! put a topic about this on the board!!
<jameson> XingXingXuum: So you'd sugget sticking with a BSDish license? Which practical advantage do you see in that?
<Beuc> They can with the GPL.
<jameson> Right, I was rather inaccurate.
<illusivefing> oh...shame on you jameson
<jameson> With the GPL, they would be required to distribute the sources to these binary modifications as well.
<illusivefing>
<jameson> That's the true difference.
<XingXingXuum> Actually, I'm not interested in talking about licenses.
<RustedSorrow> ok i'm rihting a topic what should write there?
<illusivefing> that wouldn't be so bad
<illusivefing> gpl it is then
<Eldron> that works
<Beuc> What are you interesting in XingXingXuum?
<Merlin_> how about Zlib license?
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<XingXingXuum> How many of you is even programmers and is planning to do any coding?
<jameson> OK. This is a rather final and sensitive issue, but it seems that those who have expressed interest in working on the project seem to favour the GPL.
<Beuc> Merlin!
<illusivefing> +raises hand halfway+
<Merlin_> I go with GPL
<Beuc> I plan to code.
<illusivefing> i plan to code after source cleanup
<RustedSorrow> i'm just interrupting
<Merlin_> we can see that
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> :x
<Merlin_> I plan to code
<Merlin_> Edlron?
<Eldron> yeh
<Merlin_> Eldron?
<Eldron> me too
<Merlin_> oh
<Merlin_> okay
<jameson> I'd like to work on porting it, and (to a less extent, not out of disinterest, but out of a lack of time) on the clean-up part.
<Merlin_> I would love to port it
<Merlin_> SDL!
<Eldron> sdl yea
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<Merlin_> To clean up the source
<illusivefing> i plan to soil myself, then regroup and come up with another plan
<Merlin_> Haven't you been listening for the past hour?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> in what, illusive?
<illusivefing> what do you mean in what?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> soil yourself in what?
<RustedSorrow> for the past hour you have benn blabbering bout license
<illusivefing> in my pants
<Merlin_> no!
<Merlin_> i mean
<Merlin_> What will you soil yourself with?
<Beuc> Does anybody has a mac. I do not, but I will have access to one from october. Porting Dink to Mac would be easier with a Mac
<Eldron> sdl >
<Merlin_> I hate mac!
<jameson> I actually have an iBook... I'm not running MacOS or OS X on it, though.
<RustedSorrow> i had an OLD b&w mac
<RustedSorrow> oh yah!
<illusivefing> i have no idea
<Merlin_> | Announcement: Any more vital things to discuss before I go and make the whitepaper? |
<RustedSorrow> yawn
<Eldron> well, I can keep on going for another extra hours..
<illusivefing> actually, i had one thing
<Merlin_> ok
<illusivefing> i can't remember it though
<illusivefing> give me a moment
<RustedSorrow> lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> + plays jeopardy song 93
<Merlin_> +
<Merlin_> +plays jeopardy song+
<illusivefing> i'll think of it later, surely this won't be the only meeting
<RustedSorrow> plays LMP-darbo diena
<Merlin_> of course
<Merlin_> | Official End of the Dink Chat |
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> ahhhh
<Merlin_> Keep chatting aimlessly
<illusivefing> 2 1/2 hours and we only had about 3 major things worked out
<Merlin_> lol
<Merlin_> for another month
<Eldron> but we'll need to know where to start then
<jameson> Merlin_: I wish that was true for me, too
<illusivefing> i dunno, now that i think about it
<illusivefing> maybe i CAN help with the source code cleanup
<Merlin_> jameson: I wish it would STAY true
<Merlin_> well, illusive fing - you're on IRC all the time, arent you?
<illusivefing> pretty much
<Merlin_> or was that Eldron
<illusivefing> i have nothing else to do all day
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> when my comp is on Im on irc
<Merlin_> I *wish CVS was up
<Merlin_> hang on, let me chech again
<Merlin_> it says
<Merlin_> "This is a restricted shell account"
<illusivefing> sucks
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<jameson> Merlin_: I'll set up CVS on signine.yi.org.
<illusivefing> does it make any difference if you use visual c++ or dev c++?
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> atm yes
<illusivefing> +sigh+
<Merlin_> We'll try to fix that
<Merlin_> brb
<illusivefing> all i have is intro edition of visual c++
* Merlin_ is away: I'm busy
<illusivefing> and devc++
<jameson> BTW, I have another issue I think we should discuss, namely the future of TDP licensing. Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. Some people have suggested to move to a copyleft license, though, to ensure that no one "hijacks" their extensions.
<Eldron> actually, thats true
<illusivefing> brb
<Eldron> we cant keep tdp with seths license..
<jameson> We can, but we'll have to get rid of the files not covered by it.
<Eldron> didn't we?
<jameson> Technically, yes. But they're still required for compilation.
<Eldron> not really
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> actuall yes
<jameson> I put up a separate zip file which includes them so people can download and install it on top of CVS.
<Eldron> but we'll just have to remove the stuff connecting them
<jameson> Yes. I don't think this will be a major issue.
<illusivefing> ok i'm back
<illusivefing> my mom lied
<illusivefing> there's no wedding shower this afternoon
<jameson> Maybe using something more modern like Subversion or arch would be a possibility as well, but I'd like not to install these on a public machine I have to administrate, as they're inherently more prone to security exploits...
* Merlin_ is back (gone 00:09:19)
<RustedSorrow> WHAT DID i MISS?
<illusivefing> nothing important
<RustedSorrow> good
<RustedSorrow> i wanna ask something
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Merlin_> ok
<RustedSorrow> now please shutup
<illusivefing> yessuhmassah
<RustedSorrow> if someone makes some great midification to the engine
<RustedSorrow> it is put in the dink project
<RustedSorrow> right?
<Merlin_> maybe
<RustedSorrow> ok let's say it is
<RustedSorrow> now some other guy makes something else cool
<Merlin_> that's more of a probably
<RustedSorrow> and will it those to be combined to one or two seperate things?
<illusivefing> +going through second liter of caffeine+
<RustedSorrow> hello?
<Merlin_> can you give us an example?
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Eldron> well
<RustedSorrow> the dink project
<Eldron> if those guys were both playing with the cvs of tdp
<RustedSorrow> ???
<Merlin_> and....?
<Eldron> and if their modifications to the source were well made..
<illusivefing> he's saying if someone has a great idea and it becomes a project, and another person has a great idea to add to the project, would they be combined into one project file?
<RustedSorrow> yes!
<Merlin_> ohhhh!!
<illusivefing> i would think they would
<RustedSorrow> plese let me talk!
<Merlin_> probably
<illusivefing> lol
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Please continue.
<RustedSorrow> i think there should be one file that is updating time and time again
<Merlin_> that's what CVS is for
<RustedSorrow> like yesterday it was just mp3 support and tpday it's mp3 support and something else new
<RustedSorrow> today
<illusivefing> i think there should be a safe copy of the engine also, a stable one for each new generation of versions
<Eldron> we'll
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> that'll be like an 'release'
<Eldron> but the cvs will be updated daily
<illusivefing> more like a backup is what i'm thinking of...like
<Merlin_> once it goes though testing
<jameson> We're using something called a 'revision control system' (it sounds like no one here is familiar with this, which is why I should probably explain it).
<Merlin_> yes, like an old version
<RustedSorrow> ok let me talk again
<Merlin_> i thought it was CVS?
<jameson> A revision control system, such as CVS, stores all old version of a program.
<jameson> Furthermore, it allows more than one person to work on a program at the same time, and tries to merge changes done by people concurrently.
<illusivefing> that's good then
<Merlin_> it backups into nightly tarbals
<RustedSorrow> do like this "the dink engine with ALL the new stuff"
<jameson> This doesn't work perfectly, of course, and sometimes requires user interaction if changes overlap.
<Eldron> rusted, well, it'll be mostly improved stuff with the same base..
<RustedSorrow> "dink engine wiht only an exact feature
<Eldron> it'll work the same, but it'll have more features
<RustedSorrow> but that's not whatt i want to say?
<Merlin_> +looks outisde+ "ahhhh!" +Merlin_ is blinded+
<RustedSorrow> will it be one uploading file or 100 of files with diffrient features!
<illusivefing> is merlin becoming vampirish as well?
<Merlin_> would you like me to show you?
<illusivefing> sure
<Merlin_> +evil slurping sounds+
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<illusivefing> let's answer rusted's question
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> yes master
<RustedSorrow> go suck a dog
<illusivefing> it's yessuhmassah to you
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> 's b;ood
<Merlin_> Rs, is that what you do in your spare time?
<Merlin_> do you like dogs?
<RustedSorrow> it was like a command lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_>
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Revision managers abstract over files.
<Eldron> rusted, there'll always be a latest 'official' release..
<illusivefing> so what else has not been covered in the last 2 1/2 hours?
<Beuc> I am back eventually, and I fastly read the log
<jameson> RustedSorrow: This means that you don't (normally, you can do that if you want to) update one file, but, rather, merge all of your changes into the main tree.
<Merlin_> And, there will always be a development release
<RustedSorrow> like one file wiht all features?
<Merlin_> Like, nightly tarballs of the CVS tree
<jameson> It also means that it does not matter at all whether you have your source code split over hundreds or files or everything in one big, ugly file.
<Eldron> rusted, as long as you have the latest release you'll be able to run most dmods
<RustedSorrow> not a dmod an engine~
<illusivefing> that's another thing we need to do eventually, argue to jameson why we can't just rebuild dinkc
<Merlin_> well, it works as it is now
<Eldron> dink is opensourced, if someone is good enough to use an advanced scripting language, then he might aswell modify the source instead.. thats the main argument for keeping dinkc as it is
<Beuc> Well, will we know more about what to do tomorrow explicitely?
<Eldron> internally we can improve dinkc in speed and structure, but externally it should work the same..
<jameson> Seeing that we probably should wait for Beuc before discussing the licensing stuff (and that we don't seem to have anything else on the agenda, I believe), we might as well discuss DinkC...
<illusivefing> and if we rebuilt the language, then older dmods would not run unless the code was somehow translated
<RustedSorrow> 00:10 at my place
<Merlin_> where are you, the netherlands?
<jameson> Eldron: Modifying the source to accomodate the needs of a dmod and thus creating a locally specialised version does not make much sense.
<jameson> It means that all improvements added to the engine after the branch will be lost, unless considerable effort is put into keeping it up to sync.
<Merlin_> Well, we could include an engine check to check for the dink.exe in the d-mod directory
<jameson> As such, it is much more appropriate to work with scripts.
<Eldron> but dinkc can still be powerful enough
<RustedSorrow> dinkc is a mistery to me
*** Signoff: Beuc (QUIT: Download Gaim [(Link: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])
<Eldron> rusted.. dinkc has a good structure, and it CAN be given more power
<Eldron> but we cant change the shape of it
<jameson> From what I've heard, DinkC is essentially an untyped assembly language, triggered by events in the main engine.
<illusivefing> and nothing is wrong with that, jameson
*** Beuc (~Sylvain@=B1caq-508-76-614-101.ppp.tiscali.fr) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Eldron> it works well with the game
<illusivefing> it works just fine as it is, structually
<Eldron> but it lacks the features
<RustedSorrow> i think dinkc is a nice language
<Eldron> no one has ever complained about dinkc in how its structured..
<illusivefing> very user-friendly compared to an actual programming language
<RustedSorrow> :::question:::
<RustedSorrow> was it hard to you to learn dinkc?
<Merlin_> +turns on pocket pc and plays solitare+
<Eldron> rusted, well, it was C
<RustedSorrow> ?
<illusivefing> not for me
<Eldron> meaning, its not complicated.
<Beuc> I am back now, I do not know whether my posts were uploaded when I came back 5 min ago
<Eldron> its event-driven and has a bunch of functions..
<Eldron> nothing more complicated than that
<jameson> OK, so what should we do about licensing?
<RustedSorrow> what licensing
<jameson> TDP licensing.
<RustedSorrow> if you are a good person you don't need licensing
<illusivefing> this is the part where i step aside and let you deal with this
<illusivefing>
<jameson> Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. However, I rather like the idea of copylefting it...
<Eldron> well, we'll remove those files we cant use and then switch it to something more fitting..
<jameson> RustedSorrow: You need licensing so people are allowed to use your source code
<RustedSorrow> why
<jameson> Question is: Should we stay BSD-ish, or copyleft it?
<RustedSorrow> can you just let them?
<Beuc> And not abuse of it.
<Merlin_> If we include those copyrighted files, we're not supposed to use SF
<Eldron> we dont need the copyrighted files anyway
<illusivefing> what exactly is copyleft?
<Eldron> they are not crucial
<Beuc> RS: the "why" is mainly to avoid emailing people each time anybody want to use the project.
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes, you can let them. But you need to write down what you want to allow them to do, or otherwise they'll violate copyright law.
<RustedSorrow> pffft
<Merlin_> well, could we rewrite them?
<RustedSorrow> stupid
<Merlin_> or just use a new format?
<RustedSorrow> are you a corporation?
<illusivefing> or...even better yet, we could ask seth to rewrite it
<RustedSorrow> are you gonna punish them for violating?
<Beuc> Copyleft is a way to use copyright to keep a project free for everyone.
<jameson> The copyrighted files could be rewritten pretty straightforwardly, as far as I can tell (and should be, to allow a more modular (and portable) approach)
<illusivefing> oh okay, that's cool
<Merlin_> hehe seth... you're kidding?
<illusivefing> lol yes i am
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> not to say that it's not worth a shot though
<illusivefing> though maybe that would be pushing it
<RustedSorrow> uh... .
<RustedSorrow> JAN 5 - NEW PHOTOS of dink author scratcher.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 31 - new surveys that totally suck.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 13 - another funny addition of dink surveys with the one and only phoenix, check it out now! i said now, pinko!
<RustedSorrow> DEC 12 - ive got it! update info! whenever i get new pictures or surveys or links or whhhhhhhatever, i will put it here so that you homeys know whats going on. the site has a new layout and graphics and such, if you havent noticed already. i know it is pretty terrible... but i dont care that much. anyway...
<RustedSorrow> NEW PHOTOS of dink smallwood creater seth, and dinker tal the templar.
<RustedSorrow> NEW SURVEYS of quite a few dinkers as well, the most recent claiming to be a prophet.
<RustedSorrow> something is wrong with the counter... i dont know what... it will stay as is for now.
<RustedSorrow> -josh
<jameson> The difference betwen BSDish licenses and copyleft licenses (i.e., the (L)GPL, for all practical purposes) is that the latter require anyone who modifies the source code to either keep the changes to him/herself, or, whenever that person publishes a binary version, to make the source code available on request.
<RustedSorrow> what??
<RustedSorrow> sorry guys!
<RustedSorrow> very very sorry
<illusivefing> i'ts okay
<illusivefing> as long as it was an accident
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> i pressed ctrl v
<Merlin_> it was, right?
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> are we waiting for something?
<RustedSorrow> no
<illusivefing> yes
<Beuc> Yep, vote on licencing
<Merlin_> ooookay
<RustedSorrow> but i can do a kickflip
<Merlin_> oh
<illusivefing> i say copyleft
<illusivefing> lol
<Beuc> GPL prevents people from taking our jobs and conceil the source code like Seth like (with the issues we know).
<Merlin_> I go copyleft
<jameson> So, to make this more concrete, right now it's possible that TDP could come up with a great and grand number of improvements and clean-ups. Then, some person comes along, takes TDP, builds the best D-Mod ever, using some extensions to TDP, but only releases the specific version of TDP as a binary for PPC Amiga-OS. With a GPL-ish license, he would be required to release the sources to the modified TDP interpreter.
<illusivefing> brb i'm making a burger
<Beuc> illusivefing: (Link: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html)http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html
<Merlin_> what about the QPL?
<Merlin_> or Mozilla?
<RustedSorrow> WAIT!
<Merlin_> how long?
<RustedSorrow> why do we need the frekin' cupyright!
<RustedSorrow> i mean do you need it?
<Merlin_> somebody else explain it
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes.
<RustedSorrow> i wouldn't
<Eldron> copyleft is good
<RustedSorrow> is it for you or for seth?
<Beuc> For our project. Seth's licence is already defined.
<RustedSorrow> so
<Beuc> So anybody can make his project and conceil the code, but nobody can use ours like that
<illusivefing> is it possible for us to write a copyright on tdp?
<Beuc> Yes, our changes are copyrighted.
<jameson> illusivefing: We're talking about two separate issues here-- copyright and licensing are not the same.
<Beuc> "PORTIONS" copyright Seth.
<jameson> Beuc is exactly right about the copyright.
<illusivefing> license***
<illusivefing> bleh
<jameson> We can modify the license if it is compatible with the original one, i.e. if we don't violate the original one.
<RustedSorrow> bah!
<illusivefing> <<-- sleepy
<illusivefing> that's good
<Merlin_> what about the MPL?
<RustedSorrow> what about it/
<jameson> Thanks to Seth's changes to his license prior to releasing it, it should be compatible with ours.
<jameson> Merlin_: I don't know the details of the MPL or the QPL.
<Beuc> The MPL is incompatible with the GPL and prevents us from using any GPL software.
<Beuc> QPL only alllow changes as patches.
<jameson> I'm quite happy with the GPL, as it allows me to re-use my own code (which some other people have contributed to).
<RustedSorrow> M.A.S.H.-many ather stupid horses
*** XingXingXuum (XingXingXu@=F6w36n2wnm40b4053.telia.com) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> LONG excerpt conning
<Merlin_> MOZILLA PUBLIC LICENSE
<Merlin_> Version 1.1
<Merlin_> 1. Definitions.
<Merlin_> 1.0.1. "Commercial Use" means distribution or otherwise making the Covered Code available to a third party.
<Merlin_> 1.1. ''Contributor'' means each entity that creates or contributes to the creation of Modifications.
<Merlin_> 1.2. ''Contributor Version'' means the combination of the Original Code, prior Modifications used by a Contributor, and the Modifications made by that particular Contributor.
<Merlin_> 1.3. ''Covered Code'' means the Original Code or Modifications or the combination of the Original Code and Modifications, in each case including portions thereof.
<Beuc> Do not post the entire licence, we can get it online.
<Merlin_> 1.4. ''Electronic Distribution Mechanism'' means a mechanism generally accepted in the software development community for the electronic transfer of data.
<Merlin_> 1.5. ''Executable'' means Covered Code in any form other than Source Code.
<Merlin_> 1.6. ''Initial Developer'' means the individual or entity identified as the Initial Developer in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A.
<Merlin_> 1.7. ''Larger Work'' means a work which combines Covered Code or portions thereof with code not governed by the terms of this License.
<Merlin_> 1.8. ''License'' means this document.
<Merlin_> 1.8.1. "Licensable" means having the right to grant, to the maximum extent possible, whether at the time of the initial grant or subsequently acquired, any and all of the rights conveyed herein.
<Merlin_> 1.9. ''Modifications'' means any addition to or deletion from the substance or structure of either the Original Code or any previous Modifications. When Covered Code is released as a series of files, a Modification is:
<Merlin_> A. Any addition to or deletion from the contents of a file containing Original Code or previous Modifications.
<RustedSorrow> ooo
<Merlin_> B. Any new file that contains any part of the Original Code or previous Modifications.
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> 1.10. ''Original Code'' means Source Code of computer software code which is described in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A as Original Code, and which, at th
<Merlin_> want more?
<Merlin_> he he
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> okay
<illusivefing> all i really care to know is: is that good?
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> i din't read anything
<Beuc> (Link: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html)http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html for a licence list
<illusivefing> same here
<RustedSorrow> WAIT! guys!
<RustedSorrow> let's leave the law sutff to those who know it
<jameson> These are only definitions, and don't tell us anything about the license itself. We'd have to read up on it in detail to judge whether it's useful.
<XingXingXuum> Would this be a discussion about the Dink Smallwood Source? If so, why are you talking about licenses?
<illusivefing> i'm not going to mess with that because i know little to nothing about licensing
<jameson> Question is: Is anyone uncomfortable with moving to the GPL as soon as we got rid of the files not covered by Seth's license (which, IIRC, would be a requirement)?
<illusivefing> this would be
<Merlin_> nope
<Beuc> Because we want to protect our work from misuse.
<illusivefing> no
<Beuc> neither do i
<RustedSorrow> so
<Merlin_> now, the LGPL or GPL?
<RustedSorrow> """topic change''''
<Eldron> gpl sounds fine
<XingXingXuum> Why do you even want to move to GPL? That license is a bit strict.
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<illusivefing> what's the difference?
<illusivefing> lol
<illusivefing> wait, don't answer that
<Beuc> LGPL would allow to link our work iin proprietary software.
<illusivefing> answer this: which one protects us more?
<Merlin_> lmao
<jameson> The difference is rather important...
<Beuc> too late
<illusivefing>
<Beuc> The GPL protects us more. LGPL is meant for special cases.
<Merlin_> +brings pillow to chair+
<jameson> The LGPL would allow people to distribute binary modifications which are required to run their D-Mods and which must be loaded into a sufficiently prepared (but LGPL'd) version of TDP.
<illusivefing> gpl sounds good to me then
<XingXingXuum> This is killing me already.
<illusivefing> wait...lgpl might actually be useful
<Beuc> In which case?
<illusivefing> in the case that people want to patch the engine to run their dmod
<RustedSorrow> hey! put a topic about this on the board!!
<jameson> XingXingXuum: So you'd sugget sticking with a BSDish license? Which practical advantage do you see in that?
<Beuc> They can with the GPL.
<jameson> Right, I was rather inaccurate.
<illusivefing> oh...shame on you jameson
<jameson> With the GPL, they would be required to distribute the sources to these binary modifications as well.
<illusivefing>
<jameson> That's the true difference.
<XingXingXuum> Actually, I'm not interested in talking about licenses.
<RustedSorrow> ok i'm rihting a topic what should write there?
<illusivefing> that wouldn't be so bad
<illusivefing> gpl it is then
<Eldron> that works
<Beuc> What are you interesting in XingXingXuum?
<Merlin_> how about Zlib license?
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<XingXingXuum> How many of you is even programmers and is planning to do any coding?
<jameson> OK. This is a rather final and sensitive issue, but it seems that those who have expressed interest in working on the project seem to favour the GPL.
<Beuc> Merlin!
<illusivefing> +raises hand halfway+
<Merlin_> I go with GPL
<Beuc> I plan to code.
<illusivefing> i plan to code after source cleanup
<RustedSorrow> i'm just interrupting
<Merlin_> we can see that
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> :x
<Merlin_> I plan to code
<Merlin_> Edlron?
<Eldron> yeh
<Merlin_> Eldron?
<Eldron> me too
<Merlin_> oh
<Merlin_> okay
<jameson> I'd like to work on porting it, and (to a less extent, not out of disinterest, but out of a lack of time) on the clean-up part.
<Merlin_> I would love to port it
<Merlin_> SDL!
<Eldron> sdl yea
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<Merlin_> To clean up the source
<illusivefing> i plan to soil myself, then regroup and come up with another plan
<Merlin_> Haven't you been listening for the past hour?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> in what, illusive?
<illusivefing> what do you mean in what?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> soil yourself in what?
<RustedSorrow> for the past hour you have benn blabbering bout license
<illusivefing> in my pants
<Merlin_> no!
<Merlin_> i mean
<Merlin_> What will you soil yourself with?
<Beuc> Does anybody has a mac. I do not, but I will have access to one from october. Porting Dink to Mac would be easier with a Mac
<Eldron> sdl >
<Merlin_> I hate mac!
<jameson> I actually have an iBook... I'm not running MacOS or OS X on it, though.
<RustedSorrow> i had an OLD b&w mac
<RustedSorrow> oh yah!
<illusivefing> i have no idea
<Merlin_> | Announcement: Any more vital things to discuss before I go and make the whitepaper? |
<RustedSorrow> yawn
<Eldron> well, I can keep on going for another extra hours..
<illusivefing> actually, i had one thing
<Merlin_> ok
<illusivefing> i can't remember it though
<illusivefing> give me a moment
<RustedSorrow> lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> + plays jeopardy song 93
<Merlin_> +
<Merlin_> +plays jeopardy song+
<illusivefing> i'll think of it later, surely this won't be the only meeting
<RustedSorrow> plays LMP-darbo diena
<Merlin_> of course
<Merlin_> | Official End of the Dink Chat |
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> ahhhh
<Merlin_> Keep chatting aimlessly
<illusivefing> 2 1/2 hours and we only had about 3 major things worked out
<Merlin_> lol
