Reductio ad Absurdum
"...you could make an Epic with four screens and no storyline. Just have one screen where NPCs have three hours worth of dialogue, a screen filled with another two hours worth of fighting monsters, then a screen with lots of hidden goodies for an explorable area, and then a final screen with ending credits." - Skull*
Could I? Let's see.
*Four screens
*Many Levels
*Many ABAB Quatrains of amateurish metaphor-based poetry
example:
The Forest is a box.
"A hundred paper crowns,
with whiskey on the rocks
in a barroom built from nouns."
example 2:
The Dragon is a man.
With clockwork in his jaws,
He lights the frying pan,
Subsuming all that was.
I promise they don't all start with "the X is a Y."
*One Conversation per level
*One Battle per level (refightable for the most part)
*No Hidden Goodies or Explorable Areas, there isn't enough room
*Definitely not an Epic
In "Reductio ad Absurdum," we find Dink Smallwood confronting the big end boss of a huge epic DMOD that we'll have to assume just happened. Dink fights; Dink loses. The bad guy's plan comes to fruition: the world we know is replaced with a world at once tiny and infinite. Only a couple of screens' worth of space exist, but although a great many people now inhabit this world, it's rare for more than two or three to meet as they phase through different instances of the same space.
Repeatedly, Dink will find himself in such an instance. There will be someone to talk to, and there will be a battle. He'll find out more about the bad guy and his motivations as he goes. You'll find out details of the epic quest that ended in failure. Dink won't know if he's accomplishing anything at all, but you will, because there are NUMBERS. Getting to the top one has got to be good.
--
This DMOD is so early in development that nothing really exists apart from a few text files and a bunch of ideas in my head. I've been told that this is a pretty bad idea, and it may be. Maybe there will be no interest in this, and I'll abandon it. Maybe I'll end up abandoning it at any rate. But I've been taking this idea quite seriously and spending a lot of my time on it lately.
The reason I'm bringing it up so prematurely is to solicit some ideas. A hundred conversations is a lot. I've already got solid ideas for twenty or so, but I've still got a lot of slots to fill. If anybody has an idea as to what kind of characters Dink might meet while phasing through this crazy little world, let me know. It's also pretty hard to balance a hundred battles with generally increasing difficulty, so if anybody has thoughts on that, that would also be groovy.
*Note: Skull was arguing that such a DMOD should not be considered an epic, to be clear.
UPDATE 6/29: Edited to reflect the abandonment of 100 levels, which was too much to ask of both my ability and the player's patience.
Could I? Let's see.
*Four screens
*Many Levels
*Many ABAB Quatrains of amateurish metaphor-based poetry
example:
The Forest is a box.
"A hundred paper crowns,
with whiskey on the rocks
in a barroom built from nouns."
example 2:
The Dragon is a man.
With clockwork in his jaws,
He lights the frying pan,
Subsuming all that was.
I promise they don't all start with "the X is a Y."
*One Conversation per level
*One Battle per level (refightable for the most part)
*No Hidden Goodies or Explorable Areas, there isn't enough room
*Definitely not an Epic
In "Reductio ad Absurdum," we find Dink Smallwood confronting the big end boss of a huge epic DMOD that we'll have to assume just happened. Dink fights; Dink loses. The bad guy's plan comes to fruition: the world we know is replaced with a world at once tiny and infinite. Only a couple of screens' worth of space exist, but although a great many people now inhabit this world, it's rare for more than two or three to meet as they phase through different instances of the same space.
Repeatedly, Dink will find himself in such an instance. There will be someone to talk to, and there will be a battle. He'll find out more about the bad guy and his motivations as he goes. You'll find out details of the epic quest that ended in failure. Dink won't know if he's accomplishing anything at all, but you will, because there are NUMBERS. Getting to the top one has got to be good.
--
This DMOD is so early in development that nothing really exists apart from a few text files and a bunch of ideas in my head. I've been told that this is a pretty bad idea, and it may be. Maybe there will be no interest in this, and I'll abandon it. Maybe I'll end up abandoning it at any rate. But I've been taking this idea quite seriously and spending a lot of my time on it lately.
The reason I'm bringing it up so prematurely is to solicit some ideas. A hundred conversations is a lot. I've already got solid ideas for twenty or so, but I've still got a lot of slots to fill. If anybody has an idea as to what kind of characters Dink might meet while phasing through this crazy little world, let me know. It's also pretty hard to balance a hundred battles with generally increasing difficulty, so if anybody has thoughts on that, that would also be groovy.
*Note: Skull was arguing that such a DMOD should not be considered an epic, to be clear.
UPDATE 6/29: Edited to reflect the abandonment of 100 levels, which was too much to ask of both my ability and the player's patience.
A relatively small map.
Tons of text between only a few NPCs.
Player having to assume he's playing through an Epic just cause the author's obsessed with having made one.
So what you're basically saying is that you're making Malachi 2?
Tons of text between only a few NPCs.
Player having to assume he's playing through an Epic just cause the author's obsessed with having made one.
So what you're basically saying is that you're making Malachi 2?
I was never obsessed with having made an epic. The only thing I cared (note the past tense) about was the standard in general and its unevenness. The subject has at any rate been dropped, and this was not an attempt to bring it back up. Your words just made me say to myself, "that could actually be really neat." I really don't want to argue anymore. When I said, "assume there's been an epic," I was referring to the epic quest leading up to the start of this DMOD that doesn't actually exist, not the actual DMOD you'd be playing.
I have a story that I really care about for this idea, but I'm now not sure I feel like bothering. I mean, it seems like nobody else likes this idea anyway.
Anyone reading this probably thinks I'm overreacting, and they're correct, especially since Skull was probably joking with the cat emoticon and all. When I read the post I literally threw stuff across the room. I typed up a much nastier response than this one. I have emotional problems and I might be better off staying away from the Dink Network or even the Internet for a while.
I have a story that I really care about for this idea, but I'm now not sure I feel like bothering. I mean, it seems like nobody else likes this idea anyway.
Anyone reading this probably thinks I'm overreacting, and they're correct, especially since Skull was probably joking with the cat emoticon and all. When I read the post I literally threw stuff across the room. I typed up a much nastier response than this one. I have emotional problems and I might be better off staying away from the Dink Network or even the Internet for a while.
Relax. I was just joking. This thread seems like an obvious jab at me and my thoughts I shared in the other thread, so I was just poking a little fun at it.
If you really wanna make a D-Mod like this, go ahead, though I suggest it's probably wise not to waste time on such project. And please for the love of God, if you do make this, don't try to reason it as an Epic or even a Quest. If you did and it got accepted as such, it'd be the biggest BS ever and I'd seriously be done with this site for good.
If you really wanna make a D-Mod like this, go ahead, though I suggest it's probably wise not to waste time on such project. And please for the love of God, if you do make this, don't try to reason it as an Epic or even a Quest. If you did and it got accepted as such, it'd be the biggest BS ever and I'd seriously be done with this site for good.
It's an interesting idea, I'm just not sure how much fun it would be. I get most of my kicks from exploration and narrative. So while I'm sure it'd have a good narrative it does seems like after 20 cycles or what have you, it'd start getting kind of repetitive. I'm really not sure how it'd come out. I mean, if you actually want to make it go for it. Maybe it'll be a hit. No one really knows how well it'll be received because no one's done something like it before.
There are many ideas that can be great when executed well.
With proper placement of rewards, bosses, story etc. and good balance and unique battles it could be a very enjoyable experience. But without those things it's probably not worth approaching at all. So basically, if you are willing to put in what it takes to make it great and enjoy it, go for it. Otherwise, you are probably right and it's not worth the time.
At any rate, it sounds like you two (Skull/Cocomonkey) are venting more than actually being upset at each other; no need to take out frustrations on others, we are all friends here!
With proper placement of rewards, bosses, story etc. and good balance and unique battles it could be a very enjoyable experience. But without those things it's probably not worth approaching at all. So basically, if you are willing to put in what it takes to make it great and enjoy it, go for it. Otherwise, you are probably right and it's not worth the time.
At any rate, it sounds like you two (Skull/Cocomonkey) are venting more than actually being upset at each other; no need to take out frustrations on others, we are all friends here!
Not venting. Not even upset. But neither do I exactly like the fact that somebody goes and makes a D-Mod, just for the reason of stepping on my opinion and pissing me off. It's like "Ha ha! I'm making a D-Mod to prove you wrong". That's a pretty awful reason to make a D-Mod, and not what making them should be about. Why not spend the time making a proper D-Mod instead? One that everyone can enjoy, knowing that it didn't spring from an argument.
Furthermore, I've given dozens upon dozens of reasons why a D-Mod like this shouldn't be counted an Epic, and why making a D-Mod like this is a horrible idea. I've yet to hear proper reasoning as to why it should be counted an Epic, and why it is a good idea.
No problem with Tim, whatsoever, but when your whole D-Mod in development is basically about taking the piss out of me, I expect you to be able to take a little burn in return.
Furthermore, I've given dozens upon dozens of reasons why a D-Mod like this shouldn't be counted an Epic, and why making a D-Mod like this is a horrible idea. I've yet to hear proper reasoning as to why it should be counted an Epic, and why it is a good idea.
No problem with Tim, whatsoever, but when your whole D-Mod in development is basically about taking the piss out of me, I expect you to be able to take a little burn in return.
But neither do I exactly like the fact that somebody goes and makes a D-Mod, just for the reason of stepping on my opinion and pissing me off. It's like "Ha ha! I'm making a D-Mod to prove you wrong". That's a pretty awful reason to make a D-Mod, and not what making them should be about. Why not spend the time making a proper D-Mod instead?
2 things.
1.) I'm 99.9% sure he's not making this to piss you off. Instead, he was probably inspired by your idea and thinks he can actually make something good out of it.
2.) Games are all about execution. You can have the greatest idea and still make a terrible game. Likewise you can have a very simple idea and still make an amazing game. For example Dragon Quest 8 is one of my favorite games and it is also very cliche. The execution, however, is some of the best I've ever seen in a game. It took simple ideas that everyone has already seen before and yet was able to put them together in a such a way to make a greater experience than many much more original or complex games.
2 things.
1.) I'm 99.9% sure he's not making this to piss you off. Instead, he was probably inspired by your idea and thinks he can actually make something good out of it.
2.) Games are all about execution. You can have the greatest idea and still make a terrible game. Likewise you can have a very simple idea and still make an amazing game. For example Dragon Quest 8 is one of my favorite games and it is also very cliche. The execution, however, is some of the best I've ever seen in a game. It took simple ideas that everyone has already seen before and yet was able to put them together in a such a way to make a greater experience than many much more original or complex games.
Only Tim would make a D-mod like this
There are tons of interesting things you could do to make something like this interesting. For one, giving each type of enemy different abilities at different times as the game progresses, like spawning other monsters, casting fireballs, or something. There's tons of wacky things you could do with the combat to keep the player on their toes.
What this D-mod is rated as (quest/epic/whatever) doesn't matter, as long as you can make it fun. I'm behind this idea
There are tons of interesting things you could do to make something like this interesting. For one, giving each type of enemy different abilities at different times as the game progresses, like spawning other monsters, casting fireballs, or something. There's tons of wacky things you could do with the combat to keep the player on their toes.
What this D-mod is rated as (quest/epic/whatever) doesn't matter, as long as you can make it fun. I'm behind this idea
For one, giving each type of enemy different abilities at different times as the game progresses
I've got like 25 of these types of scripts just lying around. I really need to find something to do with them.
I've got like 25 of these types of scripts just lying around. I really need to find something to do with them.
It's something I should figure out too. For me, at least, it would help make a challenging end game, similar to what Tim did in Malachi the Jerk. But, with totally different abilities 
I actually had a mostly functional super slime script I worked on a while ago. While the abilities weren't anything special, it definitely made the slime a much more deadly foe 
I actually had a mostly functional super slime script I worked on a while ago. While the abilities weren't anything special, it definitely made the slime a much more deadly foe I'm 99.9% sure he's not making this to piss you off. Instead, he was probably inspired by your idea and thinks he can actually make something good out of it.
I'd believe that, if it wasn't for Tim saying "Note: Skull was arguing that such a DMOD should not be considered an epic, to be clear", which makes this whole thing seem very much like him challenging my opinions in the other thread, and trying to annoy me. My whole point was that such D-Mod should not be made and could not be called an Epic, and this whole project just seems to be about trying to prove me wrong.
I'd believe that, if it wasn't for Tim saying "Note: Skull was arguing that such a DMOD should not be considered an epic, to be clear", which makes this whole thing seem very much like him challenging my opinions in the other thread, and trying to annoy me. My whole point was that such D-Mod should not be made and could not be called an Epic, and this whole project just seems to be about trying to prove me wrong.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! I was observing this discussion for a while and finally decided to add my brick to its wall. I agree with The new guy that it really looks like both Tim and Skull have something against each other, it looks like You are pissing each other off a bit or maybe even more, I only wonder why?
I think that both of You take it too personally. Dink Smallwood is only a game and it should be treated as such. Maybe I will exaggerate a bit, but it is not a matter of life & death or a matter of honour, therefore keep some healthy distance to Yourselves
I must say that I have lots of respect to both of You, I enjoyed both the Historical Hero II (for me probably the best epic here, I couldn't compare it to for example Stone of Balance because of the wine girl-not-speaking-about-bottle of wine-bug) and Malachi the Jerk, both must taken lots of work put into them. These d-mods only show that You simply have entirely different styles and these d-mods have different "tastes", while the Hero is more serious, the Malachi has more humour and - let's say - fun play in it. They also show that You both like experimenting, but also in different ways. These styles aren't better or worse, they are just different and it is good as long as one of You don't take it seriously enough to get pissed because of the other one.
On the other hand... if the "conflict"'s outcome would be a great new d-mod then is it wrong to have one?
Summarising with the citation from Eminem & Dr Dre's "Guilty conscience": "Relax, calm down, start breathing" and respect the other's ideas as well as the constructive criticism
As for the d-mod idea, I think there in fact could be a way to put some secrets into it by adding some hidden dialogue options. For example, some quest unlocks some topic, even ridiculous, and when you choose the right answers and be patient enough you could get a potion or some kind of a secret weapon, or get a clue for a puzzle to solve on the "goodies screen" if used.
I also agree with DinkKiller that giving the enemies some new abilities can make them the hell of a challenge, for example a simple farmer+strong "touch damage"+tonnes of health+Hellfire=a quite hard to kill Farmer Bob from Grasp of Darkness
I think that both of You take it too personally. Dink Smallwood is only a game and it should be treated as such. Maybe I will exaggerate a bit, but it is not a matter of life & death or a matter of honour, therefore keep some healthy distance to Yourselves
I must say that I have lots of respect to both of You, I enjoyed both the Historical Hero II (for me probably the best epic here, I couldn't compare it to for example Stone of Balance because of the wine girl-not-speaking-about-bottle of wine-bug) and Malachi the Jerk, both must taken lots of work put into them. These d-mods only show that You simply have entirely different styles and these d-mods have different "tastes", while the Hero is more serious, the Malachi has more humour and - let's say - fun play in it. They also show that You both like experimenting, but also in different ways. These styles aren't better or worse, they are just different and it is good as long as one of You don't take it seriously enough to get pissed because of the other one.
On the other hand... if the "conflict"'s outcome would be a great new d-mod then is it wrong to have one?
Summarising with the citation from Eminem & Dr Dre's "Guilty conscience": "Relax, calm down, start breathing" and respect the other's ideas as well as the constructive criticism
As for the d-mod idea, I think there in fact could be a way to put some secrets into it by adding some hidden dialogue options. For example, some quest unlocks some topic, even ridiculous, and when you choose the right answers and be patient enough you could get a potion or some kind of a secret weapon, or get a clue for a puzzle to solve on the "goodies screen" if used.
I also agree with DinkKiller that giving the enemies some new abilities can make them the hell of a challenge, for example a simple farmer+strong "touch damage"+tonnes of health+Hellfire=a quite hard to kill Farmer Bob from Grasp of Darkness
Skull, he quoted you at the top as an inspiration to the idea. The saying at the bottom was just clarifying that what you said at the top was not exactly how it sounded by the quote (because you were being sarcastic). He's not trying to insult you in any way as far as I can tell.
And I definitely agree with Herbie that it's just a game, and this is just it's forum. It's not about life or death, and if anyone thinks it is, perhaps some priorities need to be rearranged.
And I definitely agree with Herbie that it's just a game, and this is just it's forum. It's not about life or death, and if anyone thinks it is, perhaps some priorities need to be rearranged.
It's not about life or death (at least for me), nor do I have any problem with Tim. I like the guy, I think what he's doing for the community is great, I even like Malachi the Jerk. That doesn't mean I have to like everything he says/does and kiss his ass all the time.
I described an awful D-Mod that should never be made nor ranked as Epic, and the next thing he does, is goes and makes it, trying to somehow make it an Epic. Certainly seems like a jerkish move, if you ask me.
I described an awful D-Mod that should never be made nor ranked as Epic, and the next thing he does, is goes and makes it, trying to somehow make it an Epic. Certainly seems like a jerkish move, if you ask me.
Except, he never said it was going to be considered an epic...
"And please for the love of God, if you do make this, don't try to reason it as an Epic or even a Quest. If you did and it got accepted as such, it'd be the biggest BS ever and I'd seriously be done with this site for good."
Eh... I never participated in that whole discussion, but if this D-Mod were made I would think it counts as a romp even less than you could call it an epic.
Hypothetical situation: you have a 1 screen D-Mod with lots of different characters, tiles, graphics and conversation with a long involved story and it takes 5 hours to complete. Would you call this a romp?
Let's have the whole epic thread over again, but the other way around
Quest sounds right to me.
ANYWAY
I think this seems like a very interesting idea and would really like to see it.
This paragraph really got me thinking:
"One hundred times, Dink will find himself in such an instance. There will be someone to talk to, and there will be a battle. He'll find out more about the bad guy and his motivations as he goes. You'll find out details of the epic quest that ended in failure. Dink won't know if he's accomplishing anything at all, but you will, because there are NUMBERS. One to one hundred. Getting to the top one has got to be good."
Eh... I never participated in that whole discussion, but if this D-Mod were made I would think it counts as a romp even less than you could call it an epic.
Hypothetical situation: you have a 1 screen D-Mod with lots of different characters, tiles, graphics and conversation with a long involved story and it takes 5 hours to complete. Would you call this a romp?
Let's have the whole epic thread over again, but the other way around
Quest sounds right to me.
ANYWAY
I think this seems like a very interesting idea and would really like to see it.
This paragraph really got me thinking:
"One hundred times, Dink will find himself in such an instance. There will be someone to talk to, and there will be a battle. He'll find out more about the bad guy and his motivations as he goes. You'll find out details of the epic quest that ended in failure. Dink won't know if he's accomplishing anything at all, but you will, because there are NUMBERS. One to one hundred. Getting to the top one has got to be good."
Hypothetical situation: you have a 1 screen D-Mod with lots of different characters, tiles, graphics and conversation with a long involved story and it takes 5 hours to complete. Would you call this a romp?
Yes. Doesn't fill the requirements of an Epic or a Quest but does fill the requirements of a Romp, therefore it'd be a Romp. It's like if you made Dink X Trivia have 5 hours worth of questions, with cool new backgrounds and choice menus. Still doesn't make it an Epic.
And this isn't about what I'd call it. It's about what's always been the case in this community and what this very site still states.
Yes. Doesn't fill the requirements of an Epic or a Quest but does fill the requirements of a Romp, therefore it'd be a Romp. It's like if you made Dink X Trivia have 5 hours worth of questions, with cool new backgrounds and choice menus. Still doesn't make it an Epic.
And this isn't about what I'd call it. It's about what's always been the case in this community and what this very site still states.
Which requirements? The short descriptions here?
Seems to fit quest fine. Depends on how you define 'size' I suppose.
Agree with you about Dink X Trivia though.
(continued here)
Btw, I didn't mean you specifically, just 'you' in general.
Seems to fit quest fine. Depends on how you define 'size' I suppose.
Agree with you about Dink X Trivia though.
(continued here)
Btw, I didn't mean you specifically, just 'you' in general.
I planned to stay away for weeks and I really should have, but you know how it goes. Several days is still pretty good for me. It was relaxing.
Skull, I'm sorry for flipping out. The problem was really me, not you - I meant it when I said that I have real emotional problems. Sorry about that. I really didn't post this topic in order to take a poke at you, I posted it because your strawman DMOD idea actually intrigued the hell out of me and I wanted to make a DMOD like that. I didn't want to make it in order to "prove you wrong" (I added that note purely so that I didn't misrepresent what you originally said). I also didn't intend for it to be an "epic," which is a designation I am tiring of more and more as we talk about it. How about this: I hereby proclaim that Malachi the Jerk is not an "epic," and neither would this strange thing be if I ever make it.
Y'know, I posted this because I felt sure I was going to make this DMOD (really!), but it's looking less likely now. I've done 100% of my work so far on the story, and to make something like this fun you'd really have to go all out on the battles to keep them interesting. I dunno if I'm up to that. I'm disappointed in myself because I didn't even realize I'd be starting a fight by posting this. I thought people might be interested in my DMOD idea. Oh well.
Edit: Maybe this would be more doable and less boring if I scaled it back. There's no reason it has to be so long - after all, it's not like I wanted to make an "epic" or anything. Maybe 20 levels would be better.
Skull, I'm sorry for flipping out. The problem was really me, not you - I meant it when I said that I have real emotional problems. Sorry about that. I really didn't post this topic in order to take a poke at you, I posted it because your strawman DMOD idea actually intrigued the hell out of me and I wanted to make a DMOD like that. I didn't want to make it in order to "prove you wrong" (I added that note purely so that I didn't misrepresent what you originally said). I also didn't intend for it to be an "epic," which is a designation I am tiring of more and more as we talk about it. How about this: I hereby proclaim that Malachi the Jerk is not an "epic," and neither would this strange thing be if I ever make it.
Y'know, I posted this because I felt sure I was going to make this DMOD (really!), but it's looking less likely now. I've done 100% of my work so far on the story, and to make something like this fun you'd really have to go all out on the battles to keep them interesting. I dunno if I'm up to that. I'm disappointed in myself because I didn't even realize I'd be starting a fight by posting this. I thought people might be interested in my DMOD idea. Oh well.
Edit: Maybe this would be more doable and less boring if I scaled it back. There's no reason it has to be so long - after all, it's not like I wanted to make an "epic" or anything. Maybe 20 levels would be better.
I'm disappointed in myself because I didn't even realize I'd be starting a fight by posting this. I thought people might be interested in my DMOD idea. Oh well.
You realized your error quickly and as far as I can tell you handled it well and did what you needed to in order to relax. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Also, I do actually like the idea. But you are right that it does require a lot of effort on the part of the battles if it's to remain interesting. Generic pillbug and bonca fights won't get the game very far and will make it get boring fast.
Maybe this would be more doable and less boring if I scaled it back. There's no reason it has to be so long - after all, it's not like I wanted to make an "epic" or anything. Maybe 20 levels would be better.
There's nothing wrong with scaling it down so long as it still succeeds in what it sets out to do. Also, if you need any help with enemy ideas or with testing or scripting I'm willing to help out when I can (and I'm sure others here are as well).
You realized your error quickly and as far as I can tell you handled it well and did what you needed to in order to relax. You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Also, I do actually like the idea. But you are right that it does require a lot of effort on the part of the battles if it's to remain interesting. Generic pillbug and bonca fights won't get the game very far and will make it get boring fast.Maybe this would be more doable and less boring if I scaled it back. There's no reason it has to be so long - after all, it's not like I wanted to make an "epic" or anything. Maybe 20 levels would be better.
There's nothing wrong with scaling it down so long as it still succeeds in what it sets out to do. Also, if you need any help with enemy ideas or with testing or scripting I'm willing to help out when I can (and I'm sure others here are as well).
If you're still looking for ideas on how to have enemies use different attacks, check out en-cnite.c in my Bored of the Rings dmod. The knights attack if &story <17 and are friendly if &story>=17. The type of knight is based on the floor they are on (which also controls the vision for the walls of the room). The sequence of the knight is also set on the &floorno. The strength of the knight is loosely based on the level of Dink, the higher the level, the stronger the knight. Direction of the knight is randomly picked. Take whatever you want.
A storyline might be Dink goes into a well to save a duck that fell in. The rope doesn't make it all the way down so he has to follow a path back up. At the bottom it's dark and Dink can only see a little. As he moves up the darkness gets lighter. The paths split off several times on the way up, some lead to dead ends, some to things Dink needs to move up (a ladder, rope), and other paths lead out of the maze. Dink must also find the duck and bring it along. Good luck.
