The Dink Network

Human Rights

November 1st 2016, 11:21 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
I've been thinking quite alot lately (Uh oh) about human rights. (Uh oh x2)

Particularly the small human rights. Just those little things that dont really matter yet still, they're there and they're ours.

Example: You're having a petty argument with another person a friend. You know without a shadow of a doubt that you are clearly in the right, and indeed you are.
However your friend stubbornly refuses to admit defeat.

You are well within your rights to be angry, and also refuse to admit defeat.

But is it worth it?

Is this tiny right of yours worth fighting for? Is it worth hurting your friends feelings, and maybe having your own hurt in return?

My personal opinion is no. It isn't.

No matter what the situation is wherein you are in the right, and someone else is in the wrong, i still feel that choosing a peaceful resolution,
at the cost of a little dignity is still the right way to go.

And i'm not just talking about arguments and saving face. I'm talking about all situations where its either one of two options:

Fight for small right (perhaps even win), but suffer a large negative reaction.

Or

Give up the small right, and find another solution.

What got me thinking about this is the fact that for awhile now women have been fighting harder for equal rights.
And i'm all for that. I am.

But they seem to be more interested in fighting for smaller rights that, at-least in my eyes, don't seem worth the trouble.

For instance in the area where i live, some female workers have demanded that employers accept them into construction jobs.
Their qualm is that employers have been hiring men over woman since the two genders wouldn't mix well onsite.

See women have every right to work any job that a man does. True.

But the employer doesn't want to hire a woman because she would be harassed by the male workers, which would mean trouble for the employer.

The situation is unfair. True.

It's the fault of the male workers. Also very true.

It's the male workers who need to change, not the female. Yes.

But it wont happen.

There will always be pigheaded sexist men in the world. That wont change. At-least not in the foreseeable future.

So that's the conundrum, the woman has every right to work at a construction site while not being harassed by men.
Yet why fight for that right (causing mayhem in the process) when it just wont work out well for ANYONE involved?

What do you guys think about this subject? (not just about the sexism thing but rights in general i.e which rights are worth fighting for and which are not)

P.s: None of any of this is meant to be offensive. If you are offended by any of it i apologize.
November 2nd 2016, 01:52 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
But the employer doesn't want to hire a woman because she would be harassed by the male workers, which would mean trouble for the employer.

that's some real trust in your own employees. it's like the boss knows it will happen. why not fire them?

like, "well i'd like to hire you, but jimmy out there is a real sexual predator. so i can't"
November 2nd 2016, 03:38 AM
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Bluedy
Peasant Male Romania steam bloop
Flyest artist you know 
The thing you said about the fight with your friend. Well, there's more to that.
If you and others know that you're right, you MUST make your friend think like you, because if not, he'll live the rest of his life thinking stupidly and supporting his idea no matter what people say, making him stubborn. From there, people will avoid him more and more because he is close-minded.
So there's more to it than you think.

As for the women's rights part, it's complicated. There are true feminists out there, that fight for actual rights, and feminazis that get butthurt and are ready to kill someone if they pay an extra dollar for (apparently) the same product. Actually, this video explains it pretty good.

There's a lot of shit these days that have to do with rights (who knew 2016 would be such a shitty year). For example, the same thing that happens with feminists also happens with the LGBT community.
There's actual people who fight for LGBT rights, and then there's the shitty tumblr people who refuse to have any contact with "CIS SCUM".

I call these people the real scum. I don't like to think much about these things however. There's people who deserve more attention and respect than those tumblr members who sit their fat ass on their comfy chair complaining all day. Like soldiers, cops, firefighters. These guys deal with actual fucking problems and the society doesn't give to shits about them or their salary.
November 2nd 2016, 04:14 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
Like soldiers, cops, firefighters.

the words in bold are not heroes. at least, not ours. what about yours?
November 2nd 2016, 04:22 AM
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Bluedy
Peasant Male Romania steam bloop
Flyest artist you know 
Like soldiers, cops, firefighters.

the words in bold are not heroes. at least, not ours. what about yours?


Well, in my post I said society, as a whole. From around the globe.

November 2nd 2016, 08:21 AM
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scratcher
Bard bloop
cigarette bonca 
If you're always the one who gives up in an argument, it'll quickly become that you do things the way your friend wants most of the time, and never how you would. You have to put your foot down sometime.

For instance in the area where i live, some female workers have demanded that employers accept them into construction jobs.
Their qualm is that employers have been hiring men over woman since the two genders wouldn't mix well onsite.


That sounds like a pretty big deal to me, an entire sector of work closed off to women, and a large one at that. I don't understand why construction workers wouldn't be able to function with women at work, if they can function otherwise in society.
November 2nd 2016, 09:00 AM
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leprochaun
Peasant Male Japan xbox steam bloop
Responsible for making things not look like ass 
That sounds like a pretty big deal to me, an entire sector of work closed off to women, and a large one at that. I don't understand why construction workers wouldn't be able to function with women at work, if they can function otherwise in society.

There are *some* female construction workers, but it's a more male dominated industry than the postal service.
November 2nd 2016, 10:22 AM
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Bluedy
Peasant Male Romania steam bloop
Flyest artist you know 
But in the 1800's to the 1900's, females were completely ok with doing female stuff and males doing male stuff. What happened? It's not like there wasn't a time when they didn't give a shit about it.
November 2nd 2016, 12:50 PM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
Oooh, a topic about ethics! Somebody stop me!

Is this tiny right of yours worth fighting for?
That is up to the person choosing to fight or not. In my opinion "I would react to injustice this way, so if you react differently you're wrong" is nonsense. The person doing the injustice is wrong. The person suffering from it can react in any way they want; they are the victim. I read a piece about racism which I'm too lazy to look up; it explained the choice for a non-white person to ignore a racist comment to keep a party "nice", or to defend against it thereby ruining the evening. Whatever they choose, it's good. If the party is ruined, they are not to blame; the racist is. If they ignore it, that is their choice and doesn't make the racist right. If someone else would speak up on their behalf, that would also be great. The only thing wrong is the racist comment that caused the dilemma.

Also worth noting is that while for an outsider it may seem like a small thing (why would you ruin a party over one inappropriate joke), but for the victim this may happen every day, and they might get sick of it. So even though the thing itself may be small, it may not be so small for them.

It's the male workers who need to change, not the female. Yes.

But it wont happen.


Interesting. So you're saying that the women shouldn't even try to get justice, because the men are too stubborn? I strongly disagree on that. With that attitude nobody should ever fight for anything, because fighting is hard and you won't win immediately. While that is true, it doesn't mean things shouldn't change. And if people want to fight against injustice, more power to them.

There's actual people who fight for LGBT rights, and then there's the shitty tumblr people who refuse to have any contact with "CIS SCUM".

Trans people are heavily discriminated and are thus the victims. The ones you're talking about (which I don't know) are apparently more comfortable in a safe environment than between people they consider threatening. As I wrote above: that is their choice. If they would fight, I would support them. If they want to "flee", I support that as well. They are not the people doing the wrong here. Why would you get upset when people choose not to talk to you? Are you entitled to their attention?

Like soldiers, cops, firefighters.

the words in bold are not heroes. at least, not ours. what about yours?


Having lived in the US for a few years, I disagree about the soldiers. They are risking their lives for the country. They are sent to fight unjust wars, but that is not their fault. Of course it messes with their head, but that doesn't mean they're not heroes. I would suggest: support the troops, therefore oppose the wars.

Your cops do seem to be horrible people, and not heroes. The situation in Standing Rock is yet another demonstration of that. I have a different view of the cops here in the Netherlands; they are good people. Not all of them are great heroes, but they are certainly trying to make society better, and I appreciate that. They also get lousy pay, which is shameful; they deserve better.

Actually, this video explains it pretty good.

I would summarize her position as "there is a reason for the inequality, therefore it is justified". At no point does she disagree with the premise "life is more expensive if you are a woman". Regardless of the reason, that can reasonably be called a tax on being a woman, and is unjust if you believe that men and women should have equal opportunities in life.

But in the 1800's to the 1900's

And indeed, historically the view that they should have equal opportunities is relatively new, and still not held by everyone (in particular religious fundamentalists are opposed to it).

I believe that equality for the genders is not a given; different cultures may disagree about it and have different rules. But if you claim to strive for equality, as the US and the Netherlands do, then having a gender tax or wage gap is a problem that requires action to fix it.

It's not like there wasn't a time when they didn't give a shit about it.

Actually, it is. The price for speaking out was very high, and it wouldn't be very effective anyway, so not many women did. But strong women speaking out against inequality (and often being punished for it) has always happened.

But that's only a part of it. When it comes to construction, that used to be a field where the jobs required strong people and most women just don't have the muscles. That is no longer true; we have machines for doing the heavy lifting.

So in some fields it makes sense that women wouldn't be hired there before the machines were built. But for many others (in particular in leadership positions, like mayors and CEOs) women were simply kept out because men liked it better that way.
November 2nd 2016, 01:23 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
They are risking their lives for the country. They are sent to fight unjust wars, but that is not their fault.

it is their fault. sure, they're being manipulated, but if they truly cared about their country and the wars they'd be fighting, they would do research. but they don't. by looking at propaganda for 2 seconds, they are instantly brainwashed into thinking they're heroes.

the true heroes are the ones looking at the harm they are causing overseas and turning on the part of the army that won't listen. it hardly redeems them if they've already stomped on a few kids or defenseless farmers or something, but it's at least a show of resistance and fighting the real enemies.
November 2nd 2016, 02:57 PM
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scratcher
Bard bloop
cigarette bonca 
There are *some* female construction workers, but it's a more male dominated industry than the postal service.

It sure is, but that's no reason to discriminate towards the women that do want to work in construction.

the true heroes are the ones looking at the harm they are causing overseas and turning on the part of the army that won't listen. it hardly redeems them if they've already stomped on a few kids or defenseless farmers or something, but it's at least a show of resistance and fighting the real enemies.

Yeah, I kind of have a problem with calling people heroes based on their job in general, even if what they do is more upstanding than that. Most of those people are just as mediocre and cowardly as everyone else, not every firefighter has saved a baby from a collapsing building while suffering burns to their dick. (The official requirement for eligibility to the prestigious title of 'hero')
November 2nd 2016, 04:41 PM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
they're being manipulated
The reasons that people join the military are complex. Manipulation may be involved, but also economic pressure (the military pays for all sorts of things that are otherwise unattainable for poor people).

But whatever the reason is, they do risk their life doing it. Depending on your definition of "hero", that can be considered heroic. In my opinion even mediocre firefighters are more heroic than most other people because of that.

the true heroes are the ones looking at the harm they are causing overseas and turning on the part of the army that won't listen.
As far as I'm concerned, many of them are victims themselves (because of the recruitment methods). How they deal with that is their choice.

But that doesn't apply to all of them, of course. There are soldiers who enjoy killing others and who don't care if they need to (Chris Kyle comes to mind). Those are not heroes as far as I'm concerned. But they're also not the problem here; that's the people ordering the war (Bush, Cheney, Obama).
November 2nd 2016, 06:44 PM
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leprochaun
Peasant Male Japan xbox steam bloop
Responsible for making things not look like ass 
Also Scratcher, I was making a pun there. Please notice next time.
November 3rd 2016, 03:21 AM
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Bluedy
Peasant Male Romania steam bloop
Flyest artist you know 
Why would you get upset when people choose not to talk to you? Are you entitled to their attention?

Clearly you are not familiar with these kinds of people. No, I don't give a shit about whether they talk to me or not. But you missed the point. Did you notice the "CIS SCUM" part? It's not like they don't want to talk to straight white people(because that's what CIS means), they straight up hate them................BECAUSE THEY AREN'T BLACK AND/OR fabulous. Or that's what I think. Another reason may be that they think CIS people live their live happily with no problems whatsoever. In any case, their way of thinking is clearly shit.
November 3rd 2016, 04:06 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
the cis-scum thing comes from the fact that a lot of cis/straight people are just flatout ignorant to how LGBT people are treated and how hard they fight. just because they haven't had any of those problems (also where the privilege thing comes from), they tend to not believe in the LGBT mission.

obviously not all cis/straight people are like that, but too many are, so i can totally understand when someone in the LGBT community just doesn't want to associate with anyone who isn't LGBT in case that interaction becomes bad.
November 3rd 2016, 05:46 AM
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kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
Just remember, for you to be able to live the life you choose, others are 100% entitled to share their distaste with you.
And if you get into the politics of it, LGBT community, left wing, right wing it's all about control. It's command and conquer folks, a never ending tug of war over the line of freewill.

November 3rd 2016, 05:59 AM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
Did you notice the "CIS SCUM" part?
Sure. Cis is the opposite of trans; it does not imply white or straight. If they believe all of them are scum (or at least so many that the rest can be ignored), that's their opinion. There are lots of people with opinions I disagree with, and I'm not bothered by it. Given the situation they are in, I can even sympathize with them for having this opinion, because many cis people are scum to them (in particular white straight cis people, indeed).

My point is: if they don't want to talk to cis people, don't let that bother you. Let them live their lives without you in any way they please, and you can live your life as you please. If they're not going out of their way to tell you about it, why would you search for the hate only to be offended by it?

Another reason may be that they think CIS people live their live happily with no problems whatsoever.
I have enough friends in the LGBT community to know that that is total nonsense. If others would be happy without bothering them, they would not mind at all. The problem is not that they are jealous; it's that they are harassed, assaulted and sometimes murdered or driven to suicide. Their biggest problem is that regular people like yourself are confused by the rich and powerful into thinking that they are the cause of your problems. So instead of protesting when those rich people crash the economy and rob you blind, regular people will complain and protest against the weakest people in society.

But then, after they hear every day that they are rapists and good for nothing and what have you, should you be surprised that they dislike the people who say those things?
November 3rd 2016, 06:22 AM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
LGBT community, left wing, right wing it's all about control.
That is a very right wing way of looking at it. A left wing perspective is that we should try to make life better for everyone (which includes the person themselves, but also their political opponents).

But in particular for an oppressed group like LGBT people, they don't have time to think about oppressing others; they spend all their energy on survival in a society that is quite hostile to them.

The idea that "if the LGBT community would get power, they would oppress us" is nonsense. It's also right wing projection: it's what they would do if the roles were reversed. Which they are, and so they are in fact doing it. But not everyone is as horrible as they are, and I would not expect the LGBT community to abuse power in any way that is even close to what right wingers are doing.

But imagine how bad it would be if the most greedy and least empathetic people were in power! Wouldn't that result in a horrible society? Oh wait, that's exactly what we have. How about we do something about that instead of fighting over which of the "peasants" would be better?
November 3rd 2016, 08:16 AM
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kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
yawn
November 3rd 2016, 12:21 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
Just remember, for you to be able to live the life you choose, others are 100% entitled to share their distaste with you.
And if you get into the politics of it, LGBT community, left wing, right wing it's all about control. It's command and conquer folks, a never ending tug of war over the line of freewill.


this is one of the most incorrect things i've ever read. both factually, and morally.

yawn

if you have nothing to contribute to this subject except for showing that you know only the lies and don't care about the truths, leave.
November 3rd 2016, 12:55 PM
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kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
check your privilege for being able to respond to me in such an despicable manner!

Your dominant tone really intruded my safe space. Very masculine and triggering.

you seem mad all the time lol

all that talk of brain wash and propaganda yet you are scarily self assured in your own point of view. yikes
November 3rd 2016, 06:45 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Hey guys, great discussion we got goin here!

just a friendly reminder to respect each others opinions.

If you disagree with an opinion, there is literally no need nor benefit to respond in harsh tones.

Instead if you want to express your disagreement, do so in a calm respectful manner, remembering that were all fellow human beings here
and deserve to be treated as such.

If you don't, I'll rip your bloody head off and piss down your throat.
November 3rd 2016, 06:46 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
just a friendly reminder to respect each others opinions.


there were no opinions. just someone ignoring facts.
November 3rd 2016, 06:54 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Ok, if that's true, then you're missing the entire point of this thread.

If you firmly believe you're in the right and he's in the wrong, then it's your right to disagree.
Perhaps it's even your right to fight about it.

But why fight? Really what is the reason?

"Oh because you have to fight for these types of things otherwise he'll go on living with that incorrect worldview"

First of all, who can say if you're right or wrong in this matter? Me personally i don't know. You could very well be correct.

second, if that really is your reason for fighting on this point, then you are most certainly doing it wrong.
If you really wanted someone to understand your point of view its generally best to avoid verbal attacks.

DISCLAIMER: Remember were all family here and i <3 you all! Yes you too skurn, kind of especially you
November 3rd 2016, 07:06 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
kenji's post was about how the LGBT movement is about political conquest, and you want me to continue responding with big paragraphs like i did before?
November 3rd 2016, 07:18 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
If you really wanna fight to make your point known properly, then yes.
But if you feel as though its not worth writing out long paragraphs to explain things, or that you don't think he'll come around to understand then just don't bother.

It's really that simple.

Like momma always said, if you aint got nothin nice to say, dont say nothin at all.

EDIT: i also couldnt help but notice you didnt return my proffesion of undying love
November 3rd 2016, 07:20 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
and that's why i'm not - i posted some shit, shevek posted a whole novel, and that led to "yawn". so, it's quite clear a certain special someone doesn't care.
November 3rd 2016, 07:25 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Well then i guess that's that.
November 3rd 2016, 07:41 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
i also couldnt help but notice you didnt return my proffesion of undying love

i gotta make a giant blimp with a screen on it with some horrid animation of the most romantic thing of all time first.
November 3rd 2016, 08:24 PM
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Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
The dink network, a place for dink smallwood except everything but dink is discussed.
November 3rd 2016, 09:18 PM
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Kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
Lack of open mindedness
November 3rd 2016, 09:21 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
November 3rd 2016, 09:32 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Like momma always said, if you aint got nothin nice to say, dont say nothin at all.

Kenji <3

i gotta make a giant blimp with a screen on it with some horrid animation of the most romantic thing of all time first.

I'm waiting. <3
November 3rd 2016, 09:37 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
i'm in the development phase right now. <3 <3

♥‿♥

(ノ・ω・\ ノ
November 3rd 2016, 09:40 PM
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Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
This is probably very close to what redink1 had in mind when he created this website.
November 3rd 2016, 09:41 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
it was also seth's original intent to create a game that would spawn a site where this happens.
November 3rd 2016, 09:47 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
It's part of why i love the DN so much, it's rare to find a forum community that allows and even encourages diverse discussion topics.

November 3rd 2016, 09:51 PM
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Kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
A discussion isn't one sided. We usually just argue on here lol

PS - getting called special by an adult male who gets his kicks from cartoon ponies has truly made my morning.
November 3rd 2016, 09:56 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
finally, someone did it! : D

congraturation, kenji.
November 3rd 2016, 10:00 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Someone did what?

Anyways Kenji how long have you been here?
November 3rd 2016, 10:01 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
kenji is now the first to bash me for being a brony. truly, this is a momentous occasion.
November 3rd 2016, 10:01 PM
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Kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
Shiiet. well over a decade. Zeddexx
November 3rd 2016, 10:02 PM
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yeoldetoast
Peasant Female Australia steam
kosovo je srbija 
>Wouldn't that result in a horrible society? Oh wait, that's exactly what we have.

Yes, how horrible Western society is with its schools and supermarkets and paved roads and clean tap water and culture and justice systems. Truly monstrous.
November 3rd 2016, 10:05 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Shiiet. well over a decade. Zeddexx Wait did you join around the same time i did then? I feel like i haven't seen you around often. At least not when i had more of a presence here.
November 3rd 2016, 10:07 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
Yes, how horrible Western society is with its schools and supermarkets and paved roads and clean tap water and culture and justice systems. Truly monstrous.

*corrupt schools, supermarkets that destroy competition by existing, paved roads that are constantly being changed and worked on for usually no reason and the dangerous ones that need work aren't being worked on, poisoned tap water, and corrupt justice systems.
November 3rd 2016, 10:10 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
I feel like governments will never work well because the job attracts the wrong kind of people.

Look at the elections for goodness sake.
November 3rd 2016, 10:12 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
it's because there's so much money in it. if there were low salaries, it would attract the ones who actually care about the people.
November 3rd 2016, 10:16 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Yeah that's exactly what i mean, you get all sorts of privileges (mostly money related) and that attracts selfish assholes that don't give a damn about anyone but themselves

Where i live this lady just retired from her parliamentary position RIGHT when her special pension and free travel privileges kicked in.

What the hell has she done that's deserving the ability to use taxpayers money for the rest of your life!?

So basically join the government, do nothing, retire, make them sweet gains.
November 3rd 2016, 11:49 PM
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Striker
Noble United States steam
Daniel, there is a clown. 
Yes, how horrible Western society is with its schools and supermarkets and paved roads and clean tap water and culture and justice systems. Truly monstrous.

Well, for most of civilization, we usually *have* been lead by the most greedy and least empathetic people, especially in periods of decline. We've managed to make these strides in spite of such people, and even then, things like schools, supermarkets, and justice systems still can have and cause substantial problems. Basically: stuff still sucks, but not anywhere near as before.
November 4th 2016, 02:55 AM
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Toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Well, throught history, leaders probably were self oriented greedy dinks without empathy, but those things are closely related to ambition and making hard choices, so its a necessary two edged blade. Today however, the position of a president is a lot safer than being a king in those days.

As for feminism and similar bullcrap, I hate it.
As for racism, I hate people who hate some other people, based on what someone else told them.
as for LGBT, do whatever you want, whenever you want, but privately
November 4th 2016, 03:03 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
as for LGBT, do whatever you want, whenever you want, but privately

why?
November 4th 2016, 03:04 AM
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kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
You'll waste your life away dreaming about a world of perfection
November 4th 2016, 03:13 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
it's not about attaining perfection, it's about equal rights and not being treated like shit on a wide scale.

remember how black people were treated? almost totally the same, if not exact.
November 4th 2016, 03:37 AM
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kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
I get where you're coming from mate but you really don't know anything lol

I suggest you research the civil war era of your own country might open your eyes up to what real exploitation and discrimination is, slavery etc.
November 4th 2016, 05:00 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
*discrimination based on traits someone has they can't do anything about
*laws against them
*murder
*propaganda
*fear of them
*movement to alleviate the above and duckers against it due to false info and shit

no, it's hardly different. there's no enslavement, sure. at least not the same kind.
November 4th 2016, 06:01 AM
peasantm.gif
shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
As for feminism and similar bullcrap, I hate it.
My definition is that feminists want equal rights for all genders. You don't sound like you're against that, so I'm guessing your definition is different; can you explain what you hate?

as for LGBT, do whatever you want, whenever you want, but privately
So does that mean a trans woman (a woman who was born with a penis) should hide their gender, and dress as a man, go to the men's toilet[1], etc? In other words should they hide their identity while they are in public? And what about trans men? Should they go to the women's toilet?

I guess you probably weren't talking about trans people, but only about LGB people (but I'm interested what you think about the above questions anyway!) For LGB people, I also wonder: what does "privately" mean? Can they walk hand in hand? Can they marry? Can they kiss in public?

And for all the above: why do you think that the rest of society is entitled to tell them if they can do those things?

[1] As far as toilets go, the constant battle against supposed rape by trans women causes a lot of anxiety for them (and I'm not aware of a single case of rape in a toilet by a trans woman). Here's a first hand account of what it's like for a trans woman to go to a public toilet: cartoon.
November 4th 2016, 06:06 AM
peasantm.gif
shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
Yes, how horrible Western society is
I should have mentioned I was talking about the US there. As Skurn wrote, they don't really have any of the things you praise.

In other western countries it isn't as bad, but the rich are always trying to change that, it seems. I mean, why did my country support CETA? Why do I have the feeling they'll also support TTIP? Those deals trade away the well being of the people for profits for multinational corporations. Politicians that represent their people should never support such deals.
November 4th 2016, 06:18 AM
girl.gif
Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
as for LGBT, do whatever you want, whenever you want, but privately anything a cis or straight person can do publicly with no issues doesn't need to be done privately if they're an lgbt person
November 4th 2016, 06:21 AM
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Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
You do a good word shevek. I liking your posts.
November 4th 2016, 07:55 AM
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Toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Here comes the reply

@skurn (why?):

Ugh. Tough question to answer. My country is now democratic (whatever democracy really is). So, lets take an
example. Democracy - what most people want. Most of people here are not used ( and are disgusted ) to watch
fabulous people make out in public (this includes fabulouss and lesbos). Straight people can make out in public, we are
comfortable with that. Do we have the same rights? No. Maybe straight people here are comformists, but heck,
everyone wanted democracy, so now do what most people are comfortable with (this is the 1st failiure of democracy).
Are there fabulouss in my country? Yes. Are they beaten and threatend from time to time? Yes. Am I against that
treatment? Absolutely. I know some fabulous people, I got nothing against them (my ex boss is fabulous, thats how I got
promoted ). They should not be threatend or beaten and such, but they also must understand what the majority
here can tolerate. They should also respect my comfort, as I am in the majority. I see my ex boss almost every day
with his boyfriend. They excersize in a park regulary with some other (straight) guys ( my outdoor gym too). They never make out in
public. Everyone knows they are fabulous. No one has a problem. LGBT rights? They don't give a duck about it. LGBT
protests here are something that is used for political purposes. Also, if something is normal in country 1, and not
normal in country 2, that doesn't mean country 2 is abnormal. People are different, cultures are different. There is
no right and wrong here. There is only what people want, and what they don't.

@Shevek (feminism):

Gender equality and feminism are two categories for me. Should both genders have equal opportunities? Yes. Do
thay have them, in reality? Nope, and they never will. Some positions, men will always take easier, and other
jobs will be exclusive for women. And there is nothing wrong with it. Also, if a person has enough ambition, it
can acomplish anything, whatever the gender.

As for feminists, I see all of them as a whiney *itches who see men and women equally on every level, and they should
be treated the same way, which is just absurd and untrue. A man should be a man, and a woman, a woman. As I stated
above, both can acomplish anything with confidence, hard work, ambition and dedication.

And speaking of your chromozome built in qualities, something you can't control, as Skurn mentioned...
check out the different treatment of basic difference among the people: those who are pretty, and those who are not.
Are they treated the same? No, and they never will be. Life is ducking unfair, deal with it. That's the problem
with western society (and forced "democracy" in my land ). It tries to satisfies minorities, and doing so, goes
to completely another extreme.

@shevek (trans):

Same as for the fabulouss. Don't hide yourself verbally, but respect other people with whom you share your life everyday.
November 4th 2016, 09:02 AM
girl.gif
Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
Most of people here are not used ( and are disgusted ) to watch
fabulous people make out in public (this includes fabulouss and lesbos). Straight people can make out in public, we are
comfortable with that.


if a fabulous couple is doing fabulous stuff in public, it's the onlooker's fault for watching and being offended/disgusted by it. they could look away, go home, and learn about what they just witnessed. it's really no different from a straight couple making out in public. it's kinda weird and "hey look at us", but you don't have to look at them. and you don't have to feel negatively about it to where you want them to stay in hiding because "the majority aren't comfortable with it". just let them do whatever. it's not like they're walking up to you and hitting on you or asking if you want to join their public orgy - they're just doing what they want to do with who they love. telling them to stay in private because it's not the norm isn't helpful. i'd say the move to being openly fabulous is a huge step and it's good they made that. who knows how many other steps or how long it took for them to get comfortable enough to not care what society thinks about them at that point.

Some positions, men will always take easier, and other
jobs will be exclusive for women


it depends on the person, really. imagine a really buff woman applying to be a miner. it's probably happened. maybe.

As for feminists, I see all of them as a whiney *itches who see men and women equally on every level, and they should
be treated the same way, which is just absurd and untrue.


they're not all whiny, and they're not all that balanced. the feminism most see these days are more a hate-movement with people using #KillAllMen and shit and are at war with even eachother. the sane ones just want equal rights.

Same as for the fabulouss. Don't hide yourself verbally, but respect other people with whom you share your life everyday.

above, except without the public fabulous-doing.
November 4th 2016, 12:46 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
if a fabulous couple is doing fabulous stuff in public, it's the onlooker's fault for watching and being offended/disgusted by it. they could look away, go home, and learn about what they just witnessed

Check country 1, and country 2 part of my post again

above, except without the public fabulous-doing.

What's the difference?
November 4th 2016, 12:48 PM
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Kenji720rs
Peasant Male Australia
👾~ #беспл 
All this talk of "false" information.. Hit me with the real deal then mate nothing but cold hard #FACTS since I'm just wrong about everything it seems.. Your mindset actually reminds me a lot of radical organized relegion where false information is essential just 'you have different views and opinions to me'

Fill me in enlightened one.
November 4th 2016, 04:03 PM
knightgl.gif
zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Just wanted to make a small point here,

I dont wanna see two fabulous people showing public displays of affection when im out and about.

Neither do i want to see straight people showing public displays of affection when im out and about.

whether fabulous or straight can they all please just keep it in their pants while im trying to enjoy my shwarma?
November 4th 2016, 04:33 PM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
You do a good word shevek. I liking your posts.
Thanks!

Most of people here are not used ( and are disgusted ) to watch fabulous people make out in public
That is a different thing from the majority wanting to make it illegal. In a democracy, they can do that and that's a shortcoming of the system (in a democracy made up of two very different cultures, the minority simply has no influence at all; that is not a fair system).

But I would be surprised if that is the case here: even though a majority may be disgusted by it, if they also say that there should be equal rights, I'm pretty sure they will not want to actually ban it.

That is, unless you live in a country like Zimbabwe: a friend of mine is from there, and he told me that a majority there considers homosexuality a (bad) life choice, and they do want it to be illegal (and obviously they do not want equal rights). (I'm not sure if they did make it illegal, but I know other countries did for this reason.)

The contradiction with your statements is that on the one hand you say they deserve equal rights, but on the other hand you say that when they don't have them, nothing should be done about that. Why do you say they should have equal rights if you don't think anything must be changed when they don't get those rights?

they also must understand what the majority here can tolerate
What country do you live in? Did the majority make anti-discrimination laws, like most (all?) western countries? Did they make pro-discrimination laws, like Russia? The laws show what the majority decided they want (assuming you have a democracy, which isn't true for the US or Russia at least). If there is a law against discrimination of LGBT people, I'm sure people can tolerate them: they wrote into law that they can.

LGBT rights? They don't give a duck about it.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. They may also just have learned to keep quiet to avoid trouble. That doesn't mean they are happy with the situation.

LGBT protests here are something that is used for political purposes.
Yes, that's what all protests are for. I don't understand your point?

if something is normal in country 1, and not normal in country 2, that doesn't mean country 2 is abnormal. People are different, cultures are different. There is no right and wrong here. There is only what people want, and what they don't.
That depends on how you see rights. The universal declaration of human rights says that countries are not allowed to restrict some rights of their people. For example, in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to stop being a Muslim. You can say "that's what those people want, so the individuals in that country have to live by that rule", or you can say "individuals should always be allowed that; a country cannot take away that right" (as the UDHR does).

So if you agree with the UDHR, then there are situations where countries are wrong, and Saudi Arabia is one of them. No matter how normal they think it is, they are not allowed to punish people for changing their religion.

Should both genders have equal opportunities? Yes. ... [but] they never will ... And there is nothing wrong with it
That's a contradiction. If they should have equal opportunities, then there logically is something wrong when they don't have them.

Also, it is historically incorrect that things never change. There have been many things that used to be very different and that no longer are. With more protests and such, it is entirely reasonable to expect that total equality will be achieved at some point. It used to be unthinkable that women would have the right to vote, yet they do now (in most places). That's just one example.

if a person has enough ambition, it can acomplish anything, whatever the gender.
That is obviously incorrect. Do you really think that everyone who doesn't win a gold medal in the olympics could have won if they just had more ambition? Of course not; for almost everyone, there are obstacles to winning that medal that are simply impossible to overcome, no matter how hard they try.

The idea "I can do anything if I try hard enough" is good for giving yourself motivation. It's not true, but if it works to get you motivated, that's fine. But don't turn it into "you shouldn't complain about unfair treatment because you can do anything if you try hard enough". Because it isn't true, so you must not apply it to others. Especially not when those others have fewer opportunities. Because then you are oppressing them.

who see men and women equally on every level, and they should be treated the same way, which is just absurd and untrue
Can you give examples where they should be treated differently by the law? It obvious that people may treat each other differently based on their gender (for example, straight men consider women as potential partners, but not other men). But that's not something that the law regulates. When should the law say "this only applies to women"?

Life is ducking unfair, deal with it.
Without rules, everything is unfair. Countries make rules to deal with that. I thought everyone agreed that good rules make the country more fair for its citizens. But you seem to disagree with that? You think when something is unfair, that's fine and doesn't need to be fixed?

In your entire reply, I sense that you do not believe anything will ever change. That is historically incorrect: things change all the time. If you become active in a political movement (whether it's a party or a protest organization such as Greenpeace), you can be a part of choosing which direction the change is. The smallest activity on that front is of course to vote. But depending on where you live, that is likely not enough. For example, in the US, I would strongly suggest that you get involved in efforts to end the corruption. Until that is done, voting is basically pointless.

[trans] Don't hide yourself verbally, but respect other people with whom you share your life everyday.
So a trans man with a beard should not go into the women's toilet because it would freak everyone out, but also not into the men's toilet because some people say he's not a (real) man? In other words, you think it's acceptable that trans people should be forbidden to go to public toilets? Do you have any idea how degrading it is when society tells you that? The message to them is: "We care more about other people's made up fears than about your ability to live a normal life." Does it surprise you that continuously getting that message in different ways, every day, drives people to suicide? Is that an acceptable side effect from the policy you suggest ("let's not inconvenience the majority")?

if a fabulous couple is doing fabulous stuff in public, it's the onlooker's fault for watching and being offended/disgusted by it.
I don't agree with that. I think it is totally acceptable to limit sexual behavior in public. But if you make it illegal, it shouldn't be limited to LGBT people; it's either acceptable for both, or it's not acceptable for anyone.

i'd say the move to being openly fabulous is a huge step and it's good they made that.
Absolutely! Just knowing a single LGBT person makes people a lot less likely to hate the group as a whole. Of course that only works when they are aware that the person is LGBT. This is also why it is so important to have famous people come out; lots of people know them, so they have much more impact.

the feminism most see these days are more a hate-movement with people using #KillAllMen and shit and are at war with even eachother.
I'm sure they exist, but I haven't seen them at all. Which was my point in an earlier post: if you don't go looking for them, you are unlikely to encounter them. They are mostly talking to each other. Especially the ones we talked about before, who say they hate people not in their group.

Fill me in enlightened one.
I'd be happy to, but your posts haven't made enough sense to give you a substantive reply. I already replied to your original statements, and your reply was "yawn". Until you explain where you disagree with me, or what you don't understand, I won't be able to tell you anything.
November 4th 2016, 05:01 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Where to begin?
okay, okay... uhm... uhhhhmmmmmm....

That is a different thing from the majority wanting to make it illegal. In a democracy, they can do that and that's a shortcoming of the system (in a democracy made up of two very different cultures, the minority simply has no influence at all; that is not a fair system).

You can't please everyone, so focus on majority.

LGBT rights? They don't give a duck about it.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. They may also just have learned to keep quiet to avoid trouble. That doesn't mean they are happy with the situation.


They actually don't, because here their rights are someones political points, and they've accepted this place as what it is, as they have found the balance of what is acceptable.

if a person has enough ambition, it can acomplish anything, whatever the gender.
That is obviously incorrect.....


Actually it is. Don't take examples such as wheelchair guy can win the run race on 100 meters against Usain Bolt, that's obviously not possible. BUT, the point here is that for most of us ambition is the key. Imagine you're born in some poor african country. Yet, there are people who menaged to get out of poverty. Little number, but still possible. And they even had less chances than most of us. (this is a complex question, I can go further in another post if you want Shevek).

In your entire reply, I sense that you do not believe anything will ever change. + country 1 & country 2, saudi arabia

All out liberalism isn't a good thing, just as saudi arabian system isn't a good thing, but that is just my opinion, and I wont force it on anyone. You can always emigrate to another place you prefer more.
As for changes, from a long list of wars on this motherducking peninsula where I live, things change rarely, and (especially in modern times) under the influence of some higher powers. If America keeps firm hold of this area, we will strive for liberalism (or some twisted version of it). If Russia gets the upper hand, fag marriage will be illegal. In both cases, the change will be credited to the people, which is untrue. The only historical change that had nothing to do with government (at least, I still can't figure that out completely how) were the sixties in America.

EDIT:
all replies are for Shevek's questions. The post is too damn long, I maybe missed something...
November 4th 2016, 05:14 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Watch South Park if you haven't already. The entire show, not just recent episodes, though they are good again. They pinpoint the problems in a unique and clear way. We can discuss this forever.

Also, the main point of my first post's about country 1 & country 2 segment was that you can't force your way of thinking to other cultures. You can offer them a new view, and they can only accept it or not. Or accept it partially.
November 4th 2016, 05:51 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
too...much to reply too...

Check country 1, and country 2 part of my post again

i'll choose this for now and half-assedly respond to other things based on memory since toof's last response is below me and i'm not part of the nested master race and don't usually respond to other posts except for the last one despite my responses possibly not being about them

ok, i shouldn't have to look at two country's to determine the state of the LGBT movement. wherever you are, i'm sure it's the same deal as over here...unless you're in the middle east somewhere. if country 1 has a bunch of fearful idiots that can't see anything but cis/straight as acceptable, that's how it is in other places. humanity is too dumb to not be like that.

shevek disagreed with my doing fabulous things in public, but the solution was fair, the idea to ban public straight things as well. nobody would enforce it, though. and if it were a law, it would probably only truly apply to LGBT people and the onlookers would probably only target them.

sooo.

kenji posted some other nonsense i don't remember much of. but i do remember that opinions were a part of it. kenji. it's not opinions. these are facts we're talking about. LGBT people exist, there's lots of hate, and no...it's not about political conquest. so, i'm not acting like radical organized religion. i'm stating that a part of the world wants to not hide anymore and it's tough to get out and be accepted because of various things. and the things you've been saying are factually incorrect.
November 4th 2016, 11:17 PM
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Striker
Noble United States steam
Daniel, there is a clown. 
You do a good wordk shevek. I liking your posts.

I agree. You have far more patience for this kind of thing than I do anymore.
November 5th 2016, 05:13 AM
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Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
I like that you changed "word" to "work" while also leaving everything else wrong with that sentence

And I didn't even mean to type work
November 5th 2016, 05:15 AM
girl.gif
Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
hey, zeddykins, the frame of the blimp is done. any special touches you want done to it?
November 5th 2016, 06:14 AM
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Toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Striker im eager to hear your opinion on al this.
November 5th 2016, 06:22 AM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
any special touches you want done to it?

just make sure theres plenty of lovehearts <3
November 5th 2016, 06:39 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
i put two already. is that good?
November 5th 2016, 02:51 PM
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Striker
Noble United States steam
Daniel, there is a clown. 
No, I corrected the only the wrong with that. The rest were gooder.
November 5th 2016, 04:07 PM
knightgl.gif
zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
moar hearts
November 5th 2016, 04:14 PM
girl.gif
Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
alrighty. more.

this will be the greatest thing to ever fly the skies.
November 7th 2016, 06:34 AM
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Bornfree15
Peasant United States steam
King of gay pie 
I glad you're appreciate my wrote, striker. I try too good my word.
November 7th 2016, 06:34 AM
girl.gif
Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
butts

alright, zeddexx. here we go. time to send this blimp into the air place.

<3
November 7th 2016, 01:30 PM
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Bluedy
Peasant Male Romania steam bloop
Flyest artist you know 
I glad you're appreciate my wrote, striker. I try too good my word.

Your speak is very yes. I much like your speak
November 7th 2016, 01:35 PM
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scratcher
Bard bloop
cigarette bonca 
Such language, much wow

Kill me
November 7th 2016, 05:21 PM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
You can't please everyone, so focus on majority.
While that sounds like the best solution on the surface, it isn't actually fair in a polarized society. Suppose that there are 10 issues in the country on which groups A and B are divided. Group A is 60% of the population and group B is 40%. It would be most fair (assuming all issues are of equal importance) if 6 issues were decided like group A wants, and 4 like group B wants. But in a democracy, the result is that all 10 issues are decided like group A wants.

This isn't much of a problem if the groups are different people for each issue. But if society is polarized, and a minority wants many things differently, they suffer from this.

their rights are someones political points
Rights are always political points. That doesn't make them less valid or less important.

they've accepted this place as what it is
I'll quote myself: That doesn't mean they are happy with the situation.

Also, you realize that your statement is equivalent to "my country treats its people horribly, and I've given up on the idea that this can ever be fixed", right?

Imagine you're born in some poor african country. Yet, there are people who menaged to get out of poverty. Little number, but still possible. And they even had less chances than most of us.
There are two things wrong with this statement:
First, I would summarize what you describe as "it's massively unfair, but it is still possible". You say "so it's not a problem". I say "so that is massively unfair and needs to be fixed".
Second, the fact that a few people manage to get out of poverty doesn't mean that it was possible for everyone. It may have been a matter of luck more than anything else. "Someone else did it, so it's your own fault if you didn't" is just wrong. It's not only accepting a broken system, but in addition to that it's blaming the victims of that system for it.

You can always emigrate to another place you prefer more.
Many people cannot. If you're born in poverty, you cannot travel to emigrate. If you're from the "wrong" country, other countries won't let you in.
November 7th 2016, 06:41 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
butts

alright, zeddexx. here we go. time to send this blimp into the air place.


It..... It's..... Beautiful
November 7th 2016, 06:42 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
you haven't seen the best part. once i figure out how to land this thing, i'll show you around.
November 8th 2016, 01:33 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
@Shevek

This is getting interesting.

"60%-40%"

The system isn't perfect. But it's what the majority decided. I don't say I like it. Bend the rules whenever you
can, but this is the current agreement. Some respect it, others protest against it. Usually for both parties
it's somewhere in the middle, and that is where the hypocrisy starts.

"Rights are always political points. That doesn't make them less valid or less important."

You must fight for your rights, but there is also a chance to lose that battle. Losing that
battle means they are not valid ( but they are still important, because other side would not bother to
fight against you if they weren't).
Keep in mind that we talk about people, not mathematical equations, or laws of physics. The truth is what most
people believe is the truth. And they will until the majority changes their mind. Giordano Bruno was burned at
stake as a heretic for claiming that Earth is not the center of the world. Now he has a statue in his
honor and memory. Parisians protested against the Eiffel tower, yet most of them are probably proud to have it (it's
still ugly though).

"They've accepted this place as what it is.
That doesn't mean they are happy."

It's a compromise. Life is full of them. I don't want to live in a place where fabulouss making out is allowed. I don't
want all western modern values all over the world. In relation to ( paragraph? ) above, social values aren't right
or wrong. Sure, there are some basics that every normal person would go by, such as 'thoy shall not kill or hurt
someone for no reason'.

Back to the matter at hand, they probably can emigrate, but all their friends, families,
and relatively stable jobs are here. They can make multiple salaries and have their fabulous rights in America, but
for what cost? They've decided to stay here, and they live by that decision. This means, that they are happy with it.
When they stop being happy with it, they'll move.

"Most cannot emigrate"

I for example, can't emigrate. We don't have working visas. Even going as a tourist would cost me 2 month salaries.
However, Some of my friends who were in the same position as me, managed to get away.
I just wasn't motivated enough.

Back to the point. People are not equal, because people are different.
November 8th 2016, 03:22 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
The system isn't perfect. But it's what the majority decided.

since i still don't have a clue where you are, i'm gonna go with US facts for this post. what we have is not what the majority decided. it's what the 1% decided - the ultimate minority. fatass suits with loaded wallets decide where this country goes, not the citizens. it's been that way for quite a while. lobbying is pretty overpowered shit and needs a big nerf. when it comes to LGBT rights, it's what churches decide. for some reason, priests and sheepy church goers are allowed to change laws based on their skewed perception of reality. they whine and whine and claim its infringing on their religion, and things are changed. the rich also duck it up by cashing in on it. the real citizens over here have no say in a thing unless it's small and local. maybe. small, local things could be the same. but i'll never vote.

You must fight for your rights, but there is also a chance to lose that battle. Losing that
battle means they are not valid


correction - losing a battle for basic rights means the system is broken and the constitution is still being blatantly stomped on. again, no clue where you are, so i'm using an ancient, irrelevant, document some assholes in powdered wigs worked on.

The truth is what most
people believe is the truth.


what's that saying? that lying over and over again doesn't make the lie true or whatever? why should i join in on thinking something is true just because most do? over here, we're told what to think. the media is almost 100% controlled by a handful of corporations. most over here believe in something just because they were fed it. they don't question it. i won't be a part of it. even when people don't listen, exposing something still might help a bit. it's a war on information and facts that is currently being lost, but holy shit people are trying to get the majority out of the liquid shit the media and churches and shit are pouring out on everyone.

"They've accepted this place as what it is.
That doesn't mean they are happy."

It's a compromise. Life is full of them.


ok, this one kinda hits a nerve. that sounds like you're just brushing it off as a deal. "you stay here and be discriminated against. if you don't like it, leave." in fact...

This means, that they are happy with it.
When they stop being happy with it, they'll move.


that's exactly what it is. that is not how it works. just because people stay, doesn't mean they accept/are happy with the state of everything. why do you think people fight for their rights? for themselves, people they know, and people they don't know who are in the same situation. they also stay because it's expensive to leave. not just expensive on the wallet, but on emotions and ties with people, places, things, whatever. plus, it's like this all over the place. the fight would continue anywhere.

I don't want to live in a place where fabulouss making out is allowed.

why? what about that makes you not want it? it's awesome seeing people do that. it shows they are making progress and are becoming more comfortable with being who they are. and progress is what this world needs and comfort is what its people need. (this excludes everyone against it. most against it have probably been existing in comfort or even luxury this whole time, thus adding to the obliviousness).

I don't
want all western modern values all over the world.


so you're alright with other, harmful, values being all over the world just because its their values, so ho hum, they can do whatever they want? in other countries, the minorities or naysayers are stoned and shit. women are, by law, inferior veiled creatures that have no rights to rise against the mighty meaty man. it would be best if everyone across the world could share the same, protective, values. and whatever other good values. duck bad values.

Back to the point. People are not equal, because people are different.

people are not equal because fear, money, greed, and propaganda. what you're saying is that people are inherently not equal from the moment they exist. and while true, it's because of the above, not just simply because of that different trait. if those above things i listed were fixed, those traits wouldn't matter/matter nearly as much.

November 9th 2016, 04:52 AM
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Skull
Peasant Male Finland bloop
"I'd like to be a tree..." 
My definition is that feminists want equal rights for all genders. You don't sound like you're against that, so I'm guessing your definition is different; can you explain what you hate?

If you feel the need to rename equality itself after a gender, then that shows the true intentions in the back of your mind are anything but about equality and gender-neutrality. Possibly without you, yourself, even realising. Modern feminism isn't at all about equal rights. At its truest core, it's about trying to make men feel inferior to women, and sometimes homosexual and transgender people, too. Though in many cases I've seen that some feminists are pretty horrible towards transgender men as well. Sure feminism started with honest, innocent intentions, but no matter what anyone claims, these days it's nothing but the classic way of women, as is their nature, to try to wrap men around their finger. Only in the form of a political movement.
November 9th 2016, 08:48 AM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
If you feel the need to rename equality itself after a gender, then that shows the true intentions in the back of your mind are anything but about equality and gender-neutrality.
No, it doesn't. Just like "black lives matter" doesn't imply that other lives don't matter, but instead just highlights the fact that black people are under attack (in ways that white people aren't) and deserve extra attention, feminism focuses on equality between genders, without implying women deserve more rights than men, or that other fights for equality are unimportant.

Your suggestion that if you want to fight for equality, you must fight on all fronts at once, otherwise you're giving an unfair advantage to one sub-battle. That is nonsense. If that sub-battle is important to you, there's nothing wrong with focussing on it. It doesn't mean that you're against other sub-battles. And if in that situation, as you suggest, it would be wrong to have a word for the sub-battle you focus on, that would just make communication too confusing.

You may also notice that black lives matter activists, feminists, #nodapl people, and other people who fight for equality on some front usually stand in solidarity with each other. They all want equality, they just have a different focus for which part of the battle they are most passionate about.

Also, feminists like myself also want equal rights when it comes to things like a divorce (which is typically handled favourably to women). But given the very imbalanced starting point, the focus is on giving more rights to women, because that is what makes things more fair right now. But if we ever get there, the few areas where women do have an unfair advantage should also be fixed.

At its truest core, it's about trying to make men feel inferior to women
While this may be true for some people, I am not aware of ever having met any of them. Have you? Or is this just something made up by people who want to pretend to be victims?

some feminists are pretty horrible towards transgender men as well
Yes, and even more so to transgender women (that's trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs). I've never met any, but I know they exist and I don't understand them. Somehow they feel oppressed as women, but then have no issue oppressing trans women even more, and in fact, seem to consider that more important than fighting their own oppressors (which is not all men, but just the anti-feminists, and that weirdly enough includes some women too).

no matter what anyone claims, these days it's nothing but...
You make the mistake here of generalizing too much. TERFs may (or may not) be correctly classified by you, but they certainly don't make up all feminists. In fact, I wouldn't even call them feminists at all, because they are not in favour of equality. But this is the same mistake that people make with ISIS and Islam. ISIS says that their interpretation of that religion is the only correct one. That doesn't mean it's true. They say other Muslims aren't "real" Muslims. That's nonsense. They don't own that religion. Neither do TERFs own feminism. There are others (in fact, I'm pretty sure TERFs are a pretty small group, but they are very vocal) and there is no reason to suggest those aren't real feminists. (And similarly, TERFs don't have to, and won't, care that I don't consider them feminists.)

try to wrap men around their finger
I'm a feminist myself and I'm not a woman. I assure you that my purpose is not to wrap men around any finger. You imply that every woman naturally does this, which suggests to me that you haven't met many women. Lots of them don't have that intent at all. In fact, being an oppressed group, I more often see them suffering from manipulative people (any gender) than manipulating others. Of course some do it, but are you telling me that men aren't manipulative?
November 9th 2016, 09:35 AM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
Usually for both parties it's somewhere in the middle, and that is where the hypocrisy starts.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. If there are multiple parties and they make a compromise on the issues, so there's something in it for every group, that's exactly what's supposed to happen. Can you explain what hypocrisy you're talking about?

The truth is what most people believe is the truth.
No. The rules are what most people agree are the rules; the truth doesn't change; that's about facts, and opinions have no effect on them.

I don't want to live in a place where fabulouss making out is allowed
So you're saying that if that would be allowed in your country, you would move to a different country? Why do you care so much about who they love and how they show that? By the way, I hope you will talk about this with your LGBT friends. I'm sure they'd be happy to talk to you about it, and it may be enlightening to both of you.

I don't want all western modern values all over the world
I agree with you on that, which is why I wrote before that if other countries make laws that don't agree with my values, I don't want to interfere (but sometimes I do; it depends mostly on whether the people of that country decided it, or they were forced by their rulers).

People are not equal, because people are different.
Yes; that's why I'm not asking for equality of people, but just equal rights. Because the differences between people shouldn't be a reason for getting more opportunities.

I just wasn't motivated enough.
As I wrote before, it's fine to use that lie for your own motivation. But that doesn't make it true. The fact is you didn't get the same opportunity as others, and that's unfair. Don't tell yourself that you don't deserve better: you do. And similarly, LGBT get to demand equal rights for things like kissing in public (regardless of whether it's allowed for everyone or forbidden for everyone).
November 9th 2016, 06:17 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
@Skurn:

since I still don't have a clue where you are
>
Balkan, ex Yugoslavia

__________________

fatass suits with loaded wallets decide where this country goes
>
This is true. The world functions like that. People with money usually have da power (mind that being rich, and being powerful is not the same thing, but it's mixed in most cases). This is how
it always was, and how it should be. Think about it. The whole world revolves around the rich and powerful. Doesn't
matter how they earned their fortune. The downside is, that it also revolves around people who inherited the cash. But you can't blame them for it.

This alone is actually a really interesting subject. My friend blown away my moral values and slapped some sense in me one night when we disscused this. If you want to hear more, type "$$$, power, moar". It would be a really long post though. Im not sure if I would be willing to write it... oh well
__________________

losing a battle for basic rights means the system is broken
>
1.
We have fabulous bars. Been there, seen that. Most of us don't want that on the street (public makeout). They can do whatever they want in fabulous bar. But, please, off the streets. We don't want it. It's kinda like opinion towards nudists. Nothing wrong with it, but keep it on the nudist beach. Which brings me to theory that clothes are a lie, especialy so in a crowded public transportation.

2.
The system is same everywhere, only the circumstances are different. Im not saying
fabulouss here suffer from some serious discrimination, you can get beaten up for various dumb reasons. As I said above, we see LGBT as nudists. You wanna parade? Ok, but it doesn't need to be in center of a city. We don't really care, and it's not that important, and no one normal will fire you, or beat you because you're fabulous.

_________________

what's that saying? that lying over and over again doesn't make the lie true or whatever?
>
Most people are ducking dumb, and will believe anything. I have my own opinions, but I don't force it on others. I can show a path to Neo, but Neo has to walk the path himself . Joking aside, this is true. Man can like, or dislike. Forcing him to believe or do something is a really bad thing, BUT (and here comes out my dark side) manipulating him to believe or do something is perfectly okay. I know this manipulation sounds bad, but no one can make decidions for you, instead of you, and if you're a victim of manipulation, it's entirely your fault.

_________________

so you're alright with other, harmful, values being all over the world just because its their values
>
I am actually. Try removing cast system from India. It sounds dumb here, but for them, it's a way of life. Who am I to judge, and say Im right? When they collectively decide to change, they will. If you're on of those in minority to oppose it, than prepare to face the consequences. So, fight or take a flight. In africa, people walk naked freely. In my country you would be jailed for a night and fined. In Saudi arabia, you would probably be stoned (im not talking about cannabis here ).

________________

"people are not equal because fear, money, greed, and propaganda. what you're saying is that people are inherently not equal from the moment they exist. and while true, it's because of the above, not just simply because of that different trait. if those above things i listed were fixed, those traits wouldn't matter/matter nearly as much."
>
Uhm, retype the statement above while picturing Sigmund Freud dressed as a hula dancer and playing Toccata and Fugue on ukulele.

(seriously, please explain this => 'what you're saying is that people are inherently not equal from the moment they exist')
--------------------------------------------
I'm reading Shevek's posts now. I can't menage both
November 9th 2016, 07:09 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
@Shevek

*Usually for both parties it's somewhere in the middle, and that is where the hypocrisy starts.*

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. If there are multiple parties and they make a compromise on the issues, so there's something in it for every group, that's exactly what's supposed to happen. Can you explain what hypocrisy you're talking about?

>
Not a compromise, but 'fighting' for the rights of other group only when it suits their own agenda. Again, this is politics, zero humanity in it. Politics is devised by humans though, so there is humanity in it after all... hmmm....fatal error

_______________

*The truth is what most people believe is the truth.*

No. The rules are what most people agree are the rules; the truth doesn't change; that's about facts, and opinions have no effect on them.

>
Again, I ain't talking math here, but ehm... 'sociological' truth?. So there is no truth other than what most believe in. I don't say it has to be the truth every individual would/should agree with. But if you go against masses, be sure to check out that pyre on the left and remember the guy who burned on it for being right.

______________

*I don't want to live in a place where fabulouss making out is allowed*

So you're saying that if that would be allowed in your country, you would move to a different country? Why do you care so much about who they love and how they show that? By the way, I hope you will talk about this with your LGBT friends. I'm sure they'd be happy to talk to you about it, and it may be enlightening to both of you.

>
I wouldn't emigrate, but I would avoid their popular places. I know few fabulous guys, but only one is actually a friend of mine. He knows we are grossed out by it, and although I can talk about it, I really hate to see it. He knows that, so most of us just joke with him about it. Nothing harmful, but we get random threats that he'll get more intimate with his boyfriend if hes not allowed to choose the next song on youtube

______________

*I don't want all western modern values all over the world*

I agree with you on that, which is why I wrote before that if other countries make laws that don't agree with my values, I don't want to interfere (but sometimes I do; it depends mostly on whether the people of that country decided it, or they were forced by their rulers).

>
That's fair

______________

*People are not equal, because people are different.*

Yes; that's why I'm not asking for equality of people, but just equal rights. Because the differences between people shouldn't be a reason for getting more opportunities.

>
Hard to answer this. Peoples rights differ from country to country based on their culture, mostly, and changing them would mess with their national identity. (short version of answer)

______________

*I just wasn't motivated enough.*

As I wrote before, it's fine to use that lie for your own motivation. But that doesn't make it true. The fact is you didn't get the same opportunity as others, and that's unfair. Don't tell yourself that you don't deserve better: you do.

>
Thanks for the support, but I disagree. I can tell you a little true story about a friend of mine and myself if you like

_____________

*try to wrap men around their finger*

I'm a feminist myself and I'm not a woman. I assure you that my purpose is not to wrap men around any finger.

>
You are one seriously messed up guy. I demand unquestionable obedience from both men and women. That's why I like strategy games so much. I just move my finger, and those little, worthless dinks do as they are told to do.
November 12th 2016, 10:54 AM
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scratcher
Bard bloop
cigarette bonca 
I remember an RTS where your pawns had a morale stat, and if it got too low, they would convert to the enemy side. Losing in battle lowered morale, so you not only got overwhelmed, your laborously produced troops joined the enemy and wrecked your shit together. An... interesting idea, but Jesus duck was that game rage-inducing.
November 14th 2016, 03:09 AM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
'fighting' for the rights of other group only when it suits their own agenda.
You seem to imply that selectively fighting in those cases is bad. I'll agree that it's better to always fight for them, but isn't it better to fight for them sometimes than to not fight at all?

'sociological' truth?
Then please use a different word. "Truth" implies objectivity.

But anyway, you're saying that if your country wants LGBT people to have less rights than others, foreigners like me shouldn't interfere. I'm torn on that. On the one hand, I agree that foreigners usually shouldn't make the rules. But on the other hand, sometimes countries (including democratic countries) are hurting their people. I want to help those people.

Peoples rights differ from country to country based on their culture, mostly, and changing them would mess with their national identity.
In South Africa, the "national identity" was for a long time that people with a darker skin were second class citizens. Do you think it was good that foreigners put pressure on them to change that? What you describe for the treatment of LGBT people isn't as bad, but they certainly have fewer rights than straight cis people.

I can tell you a little true story about a friend of mine and myself if you like
Yes, I would like that. Also, "$$$, power, moar" (if you feel like writing it.)

November 15th 2016, 07:00 PM
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Toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Will reply tomorow probably. No time at the moment. Shevek, if you still have a copy of my dmod, please send it to me.
November 27th 2016, 05:25 PM
duck.gif
toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
You seem to imply that selectively fighting in those cases is bad. I'll agree that it's better to always fight for them, but isn't it better to fight for them sometimes than to not fight at all?

It ain't. I hate hypocrisy.

'sociological' truth?
Then please use a different word. "Truth" implies objectivity.


Sociological 'truth'?

Peoples rights differ from country to country based on their culture, mostly, and changing them would mess with their national identity.
In South Africa, the "national identity" was for a long time that people with a darker skin were second class citizens. Do you think it was good that foreigners put pressure on them to change that? What you describe for the treatment of LGBT people isn't as bad, but they certainly have fewer rights than straight cis people.


Didn't have a clue about that. Just a sec... Black people treated blacker people just as we treated black people, before white people arrived in Africa?

I can tell you a little true story about a friend of mine and myself if you like
Yes, I would like that. Also, "$$$, power, moar" (if you feel like writing it.)


Story about my friend is a long one. As for money and power:
Take late Fidel Castro as an example. He wasn't a rich man, he was a powerful man. Heck, take Donald Trump as an example. He is a rich man, but now he has a true power. He can invade other countries, change laws etc... Power comes from obedience of others. Sure you can get that with money, but not in the same way, and not on the same scale.
November 29th 2016, 07:10 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
trump has no real power, he's just a puppet for the duck-people shadow government.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE
November 29th 2016, 07:12 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
i mean, that is actually true to some degree.
November 30th 2016, 07:22 PM
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toof
Peasant Male
I disagree. 
Well, it was nice knowing you Zed, but now that you have exposed our super secret world overlord organisation, I'm afraid we will have to quack-whack you. All in favor?
December 3rd 2016, 12:49 PM
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shevek
Peasant Netherlands
Never be afraid to ask, but don't demand an answer 
I hate hypocrisy.
So if I have a limited amount of money that I can spare for charity, and therefore I can't give to all charities that I agree with, my solution would be to choose the ones I care about most and donate to those. You say that is hypocritical and instead I should not donate anything? How is that better?

Black people treated blacker people just as we treated black people, before white people arrived in Africa?

What I meant is that white people treated black people as second class citizens. And they considered it part of their national identity. That didn't make it right. In the same way, if LGBT people don't have the same rights as other people, that isn't right either, from my perspective. As I wrote before, it's not like I have any power over your laws, but I can tell you that I think you're oppressing that group of people for a reason beyond their control, and that is wrong. If I had power in my country, I would put pressure on your country (for example, by requiring improvements as a precondition for trade).

Power comes from obedience of others
Yes. And that can be achieved in two ways: with a dictatorial regime (Cuba, North Korea) or with money. And in rare cases by gaining the trust of people (Trump seems to have done that, amazingly by lying all the time). Money can help a lot with that as well.

Story about my friend is a long one
That's ok. I have time.
December 4th 2016, 11:45 AM
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JODYWOKE
Ghost
 
MY LiFE MATTERS
March 10th, 11:34 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
hey just reviving this so that it doesn't have 100 posts anymore.

alright, bye.
March 12th, 08:26 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
you B A S T A R D
March 12th, 09:03 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
oh how fast one can go from <3 to </3

in your case, something over a day.

channel your hate in a focused blast, zeddexx. be the one to finally defeat me.
March 14th, 01:30 AM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Oh but skurnykins...

I allready have...

Do you really think thats air that you're breathing?
March 14th, 01:42 AM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
Do you really think thats air that you're breathing?

didn't work obviously.
March 14th, 09:11 PM
knightgl.gif
zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
Maybe that's EXACTLY what i want you to think...
March 14th, 09:13 PM
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Skurn
Peasant Female United States xbox steam duck bloop
i like pie 
pretty sure i am though, especially since i just jumped around for about a minute.

try harder. focus.
March 14th, 09:19 PM
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zeddexx
Peasant Male New Zealand
I'm pretty sure I'm worth atleast SIX goats... 
There is no spoon.