The Dink Network

Session Start (sapphire.liveharmony.org:#DinkSmallwood): Sat Jul 19 13:35:23 2003
*** Now talking in #DinkSmallwood.
*** Users on #DinkSmallwood: illusivefing Merlin_ Eldron jameson|afk
*** End of /NAMES list.
*** Topic of #DinkSmallwood: The Dink Smallwood Chat
*** Set by DN-Phoenix 81352 minutes ago
*** #dinksmallwood http://www.dinksmallwood.net/
*** Mode for channel #DinkSmallwood is "+nrt"
*** Channel #DinkSmallwood was created at Sat Jul 19 01:43:55 2003
*** Join to #DinkSmallwood completed in 1 seconds.
<Merlin_> hello
<illusivefing> hi
<Merlin_> reading /., some guy built a gauss gun
<illusivefing> i thing i fell asleep so i'm trying to figure out if i'm still asleep or not
<Merlin_> +pinch pinch+
<illusivefing> doesn't work, i can't feel a thing
<Merlin_> go back to sleep
<illusivefing> sounds good to me
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> 20 more minutes!
<Merlin_> finish you d-mod?
<illusivefing> i'm so excited
<Merlin_> good for you
<illusivefing> i can't remember anything that happened after i got off the irc two hours ago, but i sat down in a chair and fell asleep
<illusivefing> and now i have this horrible taste in my mouth...pittoey!
<Merlin_> heh
<illusivefing> i almost figured that about this time, everyone that was going to be in the chat would start joining
<Merlin_> 15 more mins
<Merlin_> almost?
<illusivefing> well, to be early is to be on time, to be on time is to be late
<Merlin_> ummmm, okay
<illusivefing> lol
<illusivefing> <<-- still asleep
<Merlin_> that statement was like seth's code
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> you must be seeing an illusive finger!
<Merlin_>
<illusivefing> on my head!
<Merlin_> can i pull it?
<illusivefing> +gasp+
<Merlin_> LOL
<illusivefing> no one has ever touched "the finger"
<illusivefing> um sure i guess
<Merlin_> maybe not, you probably use it for something else
<illusivefing> +finger falls off+ hmm...that's never happened before
<Merlin_> I can't pick it up, it's illusive!
<illusivefing> maybe that's why they call it the illusive finger!
<Merlin_> who's they?
<illusivefing> er...cows
<Merlin_> hehehe
<illusivefing> and sometimes scarecrows
<Merlin_> yeah, sure, alright
<Merlin_> wait
<Merlin_> you can talk to cows
<Merlin_> and scarecrows?
<illusivefing> my illusive finger can
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> it says "..." and they say " "
<Merlin_> heh
<Merlin_> heh
<Merlin_> +mooooo+
<Merlin_> 10 more minutes
<illusivefing> uhoh...the finger detects an animal in danger somewhere!
<Eldron> a duck....
<Merlin_> lol
<Merlin_> stop it dink!
<illusivefing> +pretends to be jeff corwin+ let's go on a reptile-poking spree!
<illusivefing> we're gonna poke animals from behind with big sticks and watch them get angry and mutilate us on our show today!
<Merlin_> +steve irwin impressionism+ alrighty mate
<illusivefing> +as leg is swallowed by humongous crocky+
<Merlin_> I just love "poking" animals, mates
<Merlin_> It's my job
<Merlin_> +smile+
<illusivefing> we're going to poke everything in sight! and not just with these sticks! we're going to - +this is the point where everyone changes the channel+
*** Simeon (WC@=nNlgw.dailup.c227128159.isd-holland.nl) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<illusivefing> hello
<Simeon> hello
<Merlin_> hello
<illusivefing> brb i gotta drain
<Merlin_> proabaly a good idea
<illusivefing> that was the part where you were supposed to remind me not to whiz on the electric fence
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> oh, ok
<Merlin_> +rewind+
<Merlin_> don't whiz on the electric fence
<Merlin_> +fast forward+
<illusivefing> um, why not?
<Merlin_> +rewind+
<Merlin_> watch ren&stimpy
<Merlin_> +ff+
<illusivefing> oh, okay
<illusivefing> about 3 minutes left
<Merlin_> and noone's in here
<Merlin_> too bad
<illusivefing> i think they threw a party or something
<Simeon> they'll come.....
<Merlin_> let's go crash it
<illusivefing> yeah, along with maybe their hard drive or something
<Merlin_> LOL
<Merlin_> 31 secs
<illusivefing> nah, i'm not that illusive
<Merlin_> it's 20:00
<Simeon> 20 GMT that is
*** redink1 (~redink1@=i2969-70-871-617.kalamazoo.tir.com) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> wow, 26 seconds late
<illusivefing> shame, shame
<Simeon> neat timing
<Merlin_> that's pretty good
<illusivefing> to be early is to be on time, but to be on time is to be late...i told you so
<Merlin_> yeah you did
<Merlin_> do Ineed to start this?
<Merlin_> Eldron and I are logging
*** Beuc (~Sylvain@=Lbgge-499-65-055-331.ppp.tiscali.fr) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> shame, 2:41 late
<illusivefing> indeed.
<Beuc>
*** Kat (~Katt@=xFOaefzj-egg-110564.sympatico.ca) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<illusivefing> some form of legit punishment should be provided
<Merlin_> I'll give it 3 minutes, or I'll start it
<Merlin_> +scary thought+
<Kat> who's getting puniched?
<illusivefing> maybe... the whipping post
<Merlin_> the rack?
<Beuc> I hope I can stay for enough time...
<illusivefing> the late people
<Merlin_> Beuc, i'll mail you a log
<Merlin_> ... if i can
<Kat> I am not late...I was early twice
<Merlin_> how did you do that?
<Beuc> Thank you. I will try to let the window opened to it logs everything, though.
<illusivefing> the chat is detecting the she is late
<Kat> what she?
<Merlin_> 4:46
<Kat> 3:06 here
<illusivefing> might be a good idea to get started soon
<Merlin_> I'm on (Link: www.time.gov)www.time.gov so I can check
<Merlin_> Yeah, alright
<Kat> Now, is the the right time?
<Merlin_> ok
<Merlin_> | Welcome to the Dink Smallwood chat! |
<Merlin_> We're starting now
<illusivefing> +feels unwelcomed+
<Merlin_> thank's alot
<Merlin_> *a lot*
<illusivefing> anytime
<Merlin_> On the agenda for today:
<Simeon> hmm 8 people
<Kat> (a n00b is starting the chat??)
<illusivefing> he's no n00b
<Kat> he's a n00b compared to me
<Merlin_> 1) Discussion of the direction of the source
<Merlin_> 2) Discussion of the organization
<Simeon> yeah, considering his time on the board...
<illusivefing> let's just let the guy speak
<Kat> 3. Where's the Donuts?
<Merlin_> 3) Discussion of contributors
<Merlin_> 4) Requested Features
<Kat> I am a super duper contributer
<Merlin_> 5) The relevance of the SF.net project
<Merlin_> +passes aside the snide comments+
<Merlin_> Here we go, #1
<illusivefing> i get the feeling that the other 5 members are speaking privately
<Kat> who made a snide comment?
<Merlin_> you
<Kat> Me????
<Merlin_> it doesn't matter, lets go
<illusivefing> okay
<Merlin_> 1- Where should the source go from here
<Simeon> could be so, illusivefing
<Eldron> well, source goes through cleaning first..
<illusivefing> and then...porting would be great
<Eldron> yep
<Kat> cleaning?? there is cleaning involved?
<Merlin_> you bet!
<Eldron> cleaning.. and replacing windows based stuff with sdl..
<illusivefing> have you looked at the source as it is?
<Merlin_> yes
<Merlin_> oh, kat?
<Merlin_> don't know
<Kat> yes?
<Merlin_> I believe we should replace variables, because (seth_joy, crap, cx, cy) are not very descriptive
<Merlin_> Okay, any other suggestions?
<illusivefing> when replacing the variables
<Kat> *looks interested*
<illusivefing> we should also take note that some variable names are used more than once, just in different classes
<illusivefing> and such
<Merlin_> we should post a list of what each variable does, and the name
<Beuc> What is "afk" is jameson's nick?
<Eldron> globals variables you mean?
<redink1> Away from keybord.
<Merlin_> yes
<redink1> *board
<Kat> away from keyboard
<Simeon> everyone's here now
<Eldron> most of the one letter variables are just local variables
<Beuc> ok
<illusivefing> i'm speaking of the locals in the classes
<Merlin_> it doesn't matter if it's global or not
<Merlin_> we definitely need more descriptive variables
<Eldron> classes are non-existant in dink atm
<Eldron> but yes..
<Merlin_> +laughs at seth_joy+
<Kat> classes?
<Simeon> *kat is confused*
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> oh, boy
<Kat> Kat is always confused
<illusivefing> maybe she should sit tight until
<Merlin_> lol
<redink1> Perhaps a group project such as The Dink Project is counter-intuitive to the cleaning formatting of the code? I know of one lone-wolf project that is at least 10% done recoding the engine using the original source to insure backwards compatibility... I dunno.
<illusivefing> the discussion of contributors part
<Beuc> Using object-oriented style would be good IMHO. And it could be good also to have a OO scripting language: since all the sp_xyz() command are always related to a given sprite, a sprite.method() could be good.
<Kat> ty redink1 for clearing that up for me...
<Merlin_> okay, any other suggestions for the direction of the source?
<redink1> Wait... Beuc, you want OO DinkC?
<illusivefing> hmmm
<redink1> It sounds like a good idea... but sounds like it could be difficult to implement.
<Beuc> Not DinkC, since it would change the syntax too much, i think about another scripting language that could be used as well
<illusivefing> almost sounds as if you would have to relearn dinkc over again
<Merlin_> Yeah
<Merlin_> well, it could be made similar
<illusivefing> but the thing with that is
<Eldron> I think the basic structure for dinkc is already working proberly, the event-call system
<Eldron> its easy too
<illusivefing> if we change any of the code for dinkc rather than adding it, then the new engine won't be able to support mods made with the old engine because the code will become outdated and useless and unreadable to the new engine
<Beuc> jameson proposed two ways yesterday: 1- agree on a structure, and then clean/organize the code accordingly. or 2- try to clean the code, documenting it along the way, and then agree on a structure given that we know well what is in the code. He also added that he engine should not be too much different from other engines
<Kat> I like the old code
<Beuc> I want to keep DinkC the most compatible
<Simeon> yeah
<Merlin_> Well, it should be backwards-compatible
<Beuc> And we could add another language, even if close to the original dinkc, with a different extension, for example, that could be used as a real programming language
<Merlin_> i mean, just add new functions,
<Kat> another language...such as what?
<illusivefing> for the users who want to take things a little bit further, you mean?
<Eldron> well
<Beuc> The GIMP works well: it has a procedure database (PDB), and every language can be configured to access them. So it support scheme, perl and python.
<Eldron> That would be overkill
<illusivefing> i sort of had an idea, and i discussed it with a friend, but it might be too hard to implement
<Merlin_> perl is a language very similar to C
<Merlin_> well, let's hear it
<Beuc> *hum*
<Beuc> Just like, say, Java
<illusivefing> every dmod could come with a patch, sort of like an engine of its own that's based on the new engine being built
<Merlin_> that would be too hard, you have to deall with classes, jars, etc.
<Merlin_> illusive fing - that's a good idea
<illusivefing> but you wouldn't have to use the patch if you didn't want to, you could just use the engine as it is
<Beuc> No, I mean: Perl is as close to C as Java
<Beuc> So nothing to do with C, unless some syntax elements.
<Beuc> It could be handy to write a translator to convert old bad written dmods into clean ones.
*** DinkZealous (~lionking@=TCLgtp816-Yau.mato.com) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> It's possible to implement, because the patch would act as a layer between the C code and the code of choice
<illusivefing> yeah
*** DinkZealous is now known as AmoebaLord
<Merlin_> I'll have to make a whitepaper after this
<Beuc> I would prefer not to use it at run time, only translate the dmod once just after it is installed
<illusivefing> hmmm
<Merlin_> you mean, have a program that translates the author's code to C?
<Kat> very interesting
<Beuc> No, just a program that converts old *bad written* DinkC to a clean DinkC. Just to avoid ambiguousity when it comes to DinkC bugs, such as nested if().
<Merlin_> how about BASIC, kat?
<Merlin_> oh, then that makes sense
<Kat> Are we doing Basic
<Merlin_> like to keep compatibility with the new engine?
<Simeon> don't start about catch and throw, Kat might get confused with baseball
<Beuc> But as redink1 told me, bad written dmods could just be patched. Avoiding to make sucha translator
<illusivefing> lol
<Kat> No, No...I do no Basic....lol
<Merlin_> oh, jeez
<illusivefing> bad written dmods, what's the use of playing them?
<Beuc> brb
<Merlin_> for the story
<Merlin_> and it would be easier for n00bs
<Kat> Baseball?? Isn't the season over?
<illusivefing> you can't rely on a computer to do cleaning up for you every time accurately
<Simeon> arrhh
<Merlin_> very ture
<Kat> ooops that Hockey...
<illusivefing> so it could actually turn into a nightmare for n00bs, but i see where you're coming from
<Merlin_> *true*
*** Chrizum (Chrizum@=HVowhoi690-68-222-52.adsl.zonnet.nl) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Kat> *that is
<Merlin_> I was thinking if we changed the existing DinkC, we could make the old DinkC compaitble
<Merlin_> with that program
<illusivefing> we would have to
<Eldron> but, why would we have to change dinkc?
<Merlin_> I'm saying *if*
<Eldron> what shape would it take instead?
<Chrizum> uhm.. hey guys
<illusivefing> hi
<Kat> <<----NOT a guy
<Chrizum> kinda late, sorry
<Simeon> hello
<AmoebaLord> Hello
<Eldron> actually, from all game scripting languages I've seen I think the dinkc method works the best while being easy aswell, However, it can be given more control and power..
<Merlin_> are you sure kat?
<Merlin_>
<illusivefing> i don't know about you guys, but i still believe that for the easiest form of reverse-compatability, dinkc should not changed, only things would be added
<Kat> *looks down* yes for sure
<Beuc> I would like to bind the engine with any existing language. Bindings for Python, for example, could be good. Writing a new language is very far from our abilities.
<Eldron> I agree with you
<Merlin_> I agree
<Chrizum> *agrees with illus..*
<Kat> I also agree
<Simeon> the dinkc we have now should be useable as well, but commands could be expanded and new ones could be added
<Simeon> agrees
<Merlin_> Go ahead, Beuc - we'll be waiting
<illusivefing> lol
<Eldron> Even if we did add a new language while keeping the old one, most authors wouldn't have the knowledge to start using that..
<Merlin_> or the willpower
<Eldron> with an improved dinkc they'd know where to start and how to use it
<Eldron> because they already know how to use it
<illusivefing> that's true
<Chrizum> exactly
<Merlin_> yes, they would just have to learn some new commands
<Merlin_> if they chose
<illusivefing> but, then, what about users who still feel that they're not given enough control?
<Simeon> new commands would be fine
<Eldron> they will be given enough control
<Eldron> we're not going unreal engine style scripting
<Eldron> uber-control
<illusivefing> hehe
<Merlin_> That would be AWESOME
<redink1> Then if they want more control, they can release a stand alone D-Mod with its own EXE to do whatever they want.
<Eldron> we'll give them lots of control, but not enough for them to make a flight simulator out of dink..
<Chrizum> I think adding new commands is good. Like, changing the entire programming language would be ridiculous. Many people don't want to get to learn that.
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> good idea, we could make it check in the d-mod directory first, and then use the standard dink.exe
<Eldron> if they are good enough to use an uber language they might aswell edit the source itself..
<Beuc> I do not excluse the fact we could add a very simple language. What we could also do is improving (Win)DinkEdit to simplify most of the scripting issues. Like RPGMaker.
<AmoebaLord> Add simple new comands to DinkC, Like void smoke Dukie's pot( void )
<Beuc> Making a .exe is not difficult: just replace the dink directory with your dmod
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> That's what easydinkC is for
<Eldron> oh events?
<Kat> lol
<Merlin_> lol
<Beuc> Integrating all in one .exe is of course more difficult.
<Chrizum> hey, is this the first topic? DinkC? or have you been discussing some other source topic already too?
<Eldron> well, it strayed
<Merlin_> this is the first topic
<Eldron> the discussion
<illusivefing> yeah
<Kat> well...ummmm
<Beuc> No easy dink c helps with the syntax, but not with the overall story
<Kat> yes this is the first
<Merlin_> it's the discussion of the direction of the source
<Chrizum> ok, thanks
<Merlin_> code
<Eldron> but the overall story is up to the author
<Eldron> wizards are a bad choice..
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<illusivefing> for the people that decide to release a stand-alone executable, that's where the patch idea could come in
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<illusivefing> it could be sort of like a temporary patch though
<Simeon> hello
<AmoebaLord> Well, the first thing we need to do is add more globals
<Chrizum> hey rusty
<Kat> You are late RustedSorrow!
<RustedSorrow> i know
<Merlin_> well, it would be easier to just add the checking for the dink.exe in the d-mod directory FIRST
<illusivefing> 34 minutes late
<Eldron> well.. actually, lets go back to the first point?
<Chrizum> more globals is good. I like more globals. globals.... hmmm
<RustedSorrow> benn kickfliping and etc
<illusivefing>
<Kat> gonna cost you
<Merlin_> it's not hard to implement
<Merlin_> globals - that is
<redink1> You need to rewrite the save game format too though.
<redink1> *to add more globals
<Merlin_> have you seen the "const globals = 100" variable
<illusivefing> yes
<Beuc> What we should remove is all arbitrary limitations. Inifinite globals could be good.
<Chrizum> that's no big deal, I think?
<Merlin_> or something like that
<AmoebaLord> Let's all give TheProphet 700 globals
<Beuc> True, redink1...
<Eldron> actually
<Merlin_> very true
<Chrizum> lol @ amoeba
<Eldron> we wont need huge amounts of globals..
<Merlin_> it wouldn't be that hard
<Beuc> We could rewrite the save format, and give it another extension.
<Kat> agrees with everything
<Beuc> Keeping support for the old one.
<Eldron> we'll just need stuff like passing variables through custom functions..
<Simeon> we could set the savegame format just like the amount of data the author wants to store, if s/he wants more globals, the savefile would be bigger
<Merlin_> The author could just say which format he/she want's to use
<Eldron> to make globals less useful for random stuff
<redink1> 'Infinite' globals would probably be the best idea, to have a variable save format that isn't stuck at one file size like the current one.
<illusivefing> someone had an idea in the board, where you could choose a number of globals you would need
<AmoebaLord> Better to have infinity globals
<Merlin_> infinite would be better
<illusivefing> yeah, probably so
<illusivefing> not probably, definitely
<Simeon> ok, an infinite number of vars
<Merlin_> we could preload all the midis
<RustedSorrow> what is everyone talking about?
* AmoebaLord is going to brb
<Merlin_> I always get an annoying pause
<illusivefing> same here
<Eldron> hoho.. mp3s..
<RustedSorrow> has someone made some modifications to the engine yet?
<illusivefing> i think it has something to do with your soundcard though, not exactly the dink engine
<Chrizum> preload all midis is a great idea. Often my cpu (1,3 ghz) has to load for a lousy midi :s
<Eldron> rustedsorrow, I've done a few things
<Eldron> minor stuff for fun
<RustedSorrow> like what?
<Beuc> Do you have the same midi problem with other games, merlin?
<Merlin_> no
<Eldron> just some new player based scripting events..
<Chrizum> I've got that problem too, only with dink, really
<RustedSorrow> woohoo!
<Beuc> We should beta-test that midi pb.
<Kat> Discussing the direction of the source RS
<Merlin_> okay, change topic
<illusivefing> i have the feeling that this chat will be much longer than just til 21:00 gmt
<Merlin_> 2) how should this be organized
<RustedSorrow> yes!
<Eldron> rusted, actually its just a event thats called a player.c script when the player gets hit/presses space/uses magicbutton without magic
<Simeon> heh
<Beuc> No MP3 plz. It has licencing problems, and cannot be legally used for our project (unless we pay lots of $)
<Eldron> beuc, ogg!
<Beuc> Just go Ogg Vorbis.
<Eldron> same stuff, but beter
<Eldron> better*
<Chrizum> yeah man. is it actually over at 21:00? or can we go on after that? We need to discuss a lot of other things too
<redink1> I thought MP3 was free for non-profit applications? I could've sworn reading something like it.
<illusivefing> beuc, mp3 is also compressed sound, as long as people don't use mp3 music
<Merlin_> | 2) how should this be organized |
<illusivefing> we can go on as long as we want to
<Eldron> illussive, sounds like me
<RustedSorrow> what should be organized?
<Eldron> wait..
<Merlin_> okay then, keep discussing!
<Beuc> No, only games under 500 users or such. but since we are writting a engine...
<Merlin_>
<Kat> lol@illusive
<illusivefing> i learned from you, eldron
<Eldron> we never got anywhere with point #1
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> Well, we could take a look at FLAC
<Merlin_> Free Lossles Audio Codec
<Kat> FLAC!!
<Kat> omg No
<Eldron> what about fmod?
<Beuc> illusivegfing: the MP3 encoding / decoding are under software patents
<Merlin_> kinda like .GIF files
<RustedSorrow> yes gif!!
<Merlin_> it's the LDW compression
<Merlin_> *LZW*
<RustedSorrow> i want gifs!
<illusivefing> hmmm, good point i guess
<Merlin_> we'd have to use PNG's
<Beuc> Yes, but gif can be read legally. MP3 do not.
<Merlin_> or JPEG's
<Chrizum> gif is kinda impossible. and pretty worthless, imo
<Kat> I want a new computer...
<redink1> Hmm... and using OGG would discourage people from just downloading the latest song off of Kazaa to put in their D-Mod.
<Eldron> agree with chrizum
<Simeon> yeah
<Eldron> yeh
<Merlin_> they could convert it
<RustedSorrow> if we had gifs we can have one file instead of 15
<illusivefing> i've never heard of ogg...details?
<Merlin_> look on google
<Eldron> its just another sound format
<illusivefing> okay
<Merlin_> I think it's (Link: www.vorbis.org)www.vorbis.org
<Eldron> like mp3
<illusivefing> i'll do that later
<Beuc> Any MP3 can be converted to ogg, though, (with a slight quality loss)
<Eldron> I'll be using ogg music for future dmods
<Merlin_> yeah, it is
<illusivefing> is ogg more compressed than mp3?
<Eldron> however
<Merlin_> not really
<Kat> Eldron is making a dmod?
<Merlin_> it's about the same
<Eldron> if people start using bad copyrighted music in their dmods we can just boycot them
<Merlin_> you can, convert it to a VBR instead of a CBR though
<Beuc> ogg is an audio format just like mp3, but with no annoying software patents. Compresses better
<illusivefing> i see
<illusivefing> thanks
<Chrizum> question @ eldron.. if the new engine comes out, are you gonna finish Darkspace?
<Beuc> (Link: http://www.mp3licensing.com/)http://www.mp3licensing.com/
<illusivefing> now i'm not AS in the dark
<Beuc> For licence details
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> it's not a mattter of IF, it's a matter of when
<Eldron> chrizum, I have better ideas
<Eldron> bigger plans
<Simeon> woohoo
<Chrizum> sounds... interesting
<Merlin_> We should ditch the idea of movie support
<redink1> Why?
<Eldron> not really
<Eldron> movie support is easy to add
<Merlin_> We could just use movie sequences
<Eldron> and good to have too
<Beuc> It can be interesting, but not a priority.
<illusivefing> is avi support already available?
<redink1> Movie sequences? As in huge uncompressed bmps?
<Merlin_> no
<Eldron> lol..
<Chrizum> *agrees with beuc*
<RustedSorrow> in gifs!
<Eldron> yea, what beuc says
<Chrizum> shuddup about the gifs man they suck
<Eldron> we're not in a rush
<Merlin_> like, take take this graphic, move it over here, take 2 seconds
<illusivefing> i saw something in the source code about avi but didn't know what it was
<Beuc> We should have a program to make the dmods as small as possible.
<Eldron> merlin, but we cant make cool 3d sequences in dink
<redink1> But for FMV, just moving sprites around isn't going to work.
*** jameson|afk is now known as jameson
<Eldron> like the original dink intro
<jameson> Phew, just in time
<Kat> omg NOT 3d....yuck
<Merlin_> That was 25MB!
<Eldron> kat, whole dink is pre-3drendered
<Beuc> Could the Dink Network have some kind of filtering against huge dmods?
<Chrizum> 3d? :|
<Beuc> What is FMV?
<Merlin_> I feel sorry for the dial-up users
* AmoebaLord is back
<Kat> I am a dial up user...
<illusivefing> hence ME
<redink1> FMV = Full Motion Video
<Eldron> merlin, back then we didn't have divx/xvid
<Beuc> Hello jameson, we began one hour ago, we messed up with GMT and daylight time, it seems
<Kat> that's pre-3D
<Merlin_> but, there is a loss of quality
* AmoebaLord HATES gifs
<Eldron> loss of quality?
<Chrizum> yeah man. movies are nonsens. they could be fun, but we really don't need to discuss them..
<Eldron> movie codecs have improved alot
<Merlin_> yes, usually a big one
<Beuc> * I: Summer Dial-up user
<Eldron> well
<jameson> Beuc: Not good. I'll have to read through the message history first, then.
<Merlin_> so, lets skip movies
<Eldron> movie support would be great, but people shouldn't use them unless they can actually do highquality movies
<Beuc> I logged it.
* AmoebaLord wishes .gifs would explode and all die
<Merlin_> at least for now
<Kat> lol
<illusivefing> there's not that much high quality you can get with 640x 480 resolution
<Merlin_> So, hi color is a must?
<RustedSorrow> dial up is from the stone age
<illusivefing> not at all
<Merlin_> with a higher resolution
<Simeon> * realizes he should say something too *
<Kat> but .gfs load faster than .bmps
<illusivefing> well...then again
<RustedSorrow> dial up is from the stone age
<redink1> Yes, hi color is a must. High resolution? You'd have to rewriting... everything.
<RustedSorrow> dial up is from the stone age
<Eldron> gif's does not load faster than bmps..
<RustedSorrow> hey!
* AmoebaLord thinks .gifs suck crap
<Kat> It's all we have here...dial up
<Eldron> well
*** RustedSorrow has left #DinkSmallwood
<illusivefing> hi color support in movies would be fantastic
<Chrizum> hu color is a must? awwwwww.. no! :'(
<Beuc> What we should do is keep using formats usable by free tools.
<Eldron> high resolution is as easy as adding hi-color, but.. its not something that we need
<Merlin_> Well, we have to ditch .bmps - if we want a multi-platform game
*** RustedSorrow (~no@=twc-005-641.marinet.lt) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<RustedSorrow> weird
<RustedSorrow> as i sayd dial up suxs
<redink1> I have to go, cya
<Kat> AmoebaLord thinks too much...
<illusivefing> maybe we can add higher resolution but only for movies and such
<RustedSorrow> bye
<Eldron> merlin, bmps can be read anywhere.. but we want png or tga or something similar..
*** Signoff: redink1 (QUIT: Trillian ((Link: http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)http://www.ceruleanstudios.com))
<Merlin_> Bye
<Simeon> cya
<illusivefing> goodbye
<Beuc> I do not think .bmp is an issue
<Chrizum> cya redink
<Merlin_> I vote for .PNGs
* AmoebaLord thinks that jpgs would ruin the dinking way of dmods, but good quality
<Eldron> illussive, why'd we need highres for movies?
<Merlin_> It's open source
<RustedSorrow> i vote for gifs
<Beuc> since the bmp format is known.
<Merlin_> okay, we can't use GIFS
<RustedSorrow> gif is known too
<RustedSorrow> why?
* AmoebaLord thinks that gifs will one day turn on you
<Merlin_> It's patented .LZW compression
<illusivefing> it's not mandatory, just an option for people who feel that 640x480 isn't cool enough
<Beuc> I vote for any format for which there is a library: png, jpeg
<Beuc> and others.
<AmoebaLord> PNGS SUCK!!
<RustedSorrow> but look
* AmoebaLord thinks pngs suck
<Merlin_> let's take it up outside
<Merlin_>
<illusivefing> lol
<Eldron> jpg is big nono
<RustedSorrow> the engine can be running a looped animation
<Beuc> Oh yeah, PNM is meant as a universal simple format.
<RustedSorrow> !!
<Chrizum> why is jpeg a nono?
<Beuc> There are converters to any other format (almist)
<Eldron> as for game-art..
<illusivefing> brb
<Beuc> almost
<Merlin_> If you want animated GIFS, let's look at .MNG
<Eldron> its not a format that one would use
<RustedSorrow> hmmmm'
<illusivefing> okay i'm back
<RustedSorrow> but gifs are easily ccomplishable
<Beuc> Nobody wants animated bmp when ones has sequences.
<Merlin_> GIFs are out of the question
<Beuc> Until 2004, when all patents are outdated
<RustedSorrow> you can put all the duck's bmp's each in a single frame an -a duck cartoon!
<illusivefing> i know this might sound a little bit cumbersome, but
<Merlin_> Multi-platform users cannot make gifs
* AmoebaLord thinks that gifs are the scum of the earth and shouldn't be considered
<illusivefing> is it possible to import 3d rendered files as they are without having to convert them first?
<RustedSorrow>
<Merlin_> Like in maya?
<Eldron> illusive
<Merlin_> or 3dsmax?
<Merlin_> files
<Eldron> if we take blender for example
<Eldron> it has native support for tga's..
<AmoebaLord> 3dsmax files are very universal
<Beuc> Not sure.
<Eldron> then you could just render an animation and it would spit out all the images needed
* AmoebaLord likes to brag about his copy of 3dsmax
<Merlin_> AmoebaLord - if you don't like GIFs and you don't like PNGs, what do you like?
<Simeon> and not without reason
<RustedSorrow> wasn't original dink graphics made with 3d max?
<Merlin_> So are litewave files
<illusivefing> hmm
<AmoebaLord> BMPs and JPGs
<Merlin_> BMPs are the scum of the earth
<AmoebaLord> And Paintshop Pro Images
<Beuc> Use free tool, do not require everyone to get a copy of proprietary expensive software!
<Merlin_> those are good
<AmoebaLord> Then I imagine you'd like them, merlin
<RustedSorrow> anyway bmp's are LARGE
<Kat> agrees with RS
<Merlin_> Yes, I do like PSP images
<Chrizum> bmp are kinda lumpy, I agree. I wonder why jpeg are out of the question?
<Merlin_> That is, photoshop pro
<RustedSorrow> i dunno
<RustedSorrow> jpg?
<Merlin_> it's not
<Merlin_> jpeg is okay
<AmoebaLord> bmps are rather large, I madea death sequence for a boss in my game and it took up 4 megs
<RustedSorrow> yeah i vote for jpg
<AmoebaLord> It was 63 sequences long, though
<Eldron> there's a reason for why no game uses jpgs..
<Merlin_> We can easily implement them using DevIL (OpenIL)
<Beuc> We can support all free formats. jpg, png, xpm and such.
<Beuc> No need to choose.
<RustedSorrow> why?
<Eldron> actually
<Eldron> jpgs could work good for fullscreen images..
<Merlin_> I've used OpenIL before, it's very cool
* AmoebaLord slaps AmoebaLord around a bit with a large trout
<Eldron> but not for sprites and stuff that has to be left untouched by compressing
<AmoebaLord> True
<illusivefing> if there was a way to deeply compress the images, then why would it matter which type of file you use?
<Kat> very happy with AmoebaLord
<RustedSorrow> how to do that *slaps amobealord stuff?
<Beuc> What is OpenIL?
<Merlin_> It's an image library
<AmoebaLord> you's abuse it
<Simeon> gotta go - bye
<AmoebaLord> bye simon
<illusivefing> goodbye
<Beuc> As long as i can be freely used.
<RustedSorrow> bye
<Beuc> Cya.
<Merlin_> yes, it can
<Simeon> cya
<Chrizum> bye simeon
*** Signoff: Simeon (QUIT: )
<Beuc> What's the licence?
<Merlin_> it's at "openil.sourceforge.net"
<Eldron> but openil would be slightly overkill
<Merlin_> its the GNU LGPL
<Beuc> Just to know, what about image magick?
<Eldron> I mean, we only need one format anyway, and bmps for backwards compatibility
<Beuc> Good.
<Merlin_> This Supports loading of:
<Merlin_> * .bmp
<Merlin_> * .cut
<Merlin_> * .dcx
<Merlin_> * .dds
<Merlin_> * .ico
<Merlin_> * .jpg
<Merlin_> * .lbm
<Merlin_> * .lif
<Eldron> as I said.. overkill
<Merlin_> * .mdl
<RustedSorrow> *rustedsorrow is going for a cup of tea
<Merlin_> * .pcd
<Merlin_> * .pcx
<Merlin_> * .pic
<Merlin_> * .png
<Merlin_> * .pnm
<Beuc> All formats are interesting, and dedicated to specific tasks.
<Merlin_> * .psd
<Merlin_> * .psp
<Merlin_> * .raw
<Merlin_> * .sgi
<Merlin_> * .tga
<RustedSorrow> what weird formats
<Merlin_> * .tif
<Merlin_> * .wal
<Merlin_> * .act
<Merlin_> * .pal
<Merlin_> * Doom graphics
<Kat> ooops
<Merlin_> heh
<illusivefing> bleh, i hate dealing with images
<Eldron> but really..
* AmoebaLord is glad gifs weren't mentioned
<Eldron> using openIl might be too much
<Merlin_> gifts
<Kat> darnitall
<Merlin_> I've never used Image Magick
<Kat>
<Eldron> formats I'd choose would be png or targa
<Merlin_> oh jeez - look at (Link: http://www.imagemagick.org/www/formats.html)http://www.imagemagick.org/www/formats.html
<illusivefing> i'm happy with bmp for now
<Beuc> I think topic is closed: we have ways to satisfy everyone's image format wish. Now that's good.
<illusivefing>
<Eldron> and bmp
<Merlin_> yes
<illusivefing> moving on
<jameson> OK, caught up with the history, I think. So what happened to Agenda point (1): Direction of the Source? The only thing you discussed were directions for DinkC (which is sort of lacking from the agenda).
<Kat> I totally agree
* AmoebaLord thinks ye shouldn't meddle with formats ye've not known they're capabilities
<jameson> s/lacking/missing/
<Merlin_> well, DC is the first step
<Eldron> agree with jameson
<illusivefing> dc?
<Eldron> main point of the whole chat is #1
<RustedSorrow> waits for water to boil
<Merlin_> That's why it's #1
<Eldron> but you jumped to #2
<Kat> *wonders why dog is pacing in front of door*
<Merlin_> no, we didn't
<illusivefing> lol kat..
<Chrizum> what's DC? Dreamcast? hehe
<Beuc> Can you make "source direction" more explicit
<Merlin_> DinkC
* AmoebaLord wonders where WC could be
<Chrizum> ooh. d'oh!
<Eldron> <Merlin_> okay, change topic
<Eldron> <illusivefing> i have the feeling that this chat will be much longer than just til 21:00 gmt
<Eldron> <Merlin_> 2) how should this be organized
<Eldron> <RustedSorrow> yes!
<Merlin_> Umm, in which way are we going to take hte source
<illusivefing> wc said he'd be here
<jameson> Changes to DinkC and other changes in interpreter semantics/features are a great area to get lost in long-winded discussions; I'd suggest doing that last.
<Eldron> well
<illusivefing> amoeba
<Merlin_> Okay
<Merlin_> topic Change!
<RustedSorrow> yes!!
<RustedSorrow> !!1
<Merlin_> | 2) How should this be organized |
<RustedSorrow> what
<Eldron> but we haven't talker about anything on point 1..
<jameson> What is 'this'? The source code or the project?
<Beuc> brb (soon i hope)
<Merlin_> The Ideas in #1
<Merlin_> is this
<Beuc>
<Eldron> well, the project is what we are doing with the sourcecode..
<illusivefing> this is confusing
<Kat> aha (I am not alone in this)
<Merlin_> I assume we're going to take A sourceforge approach
<jameson> Merlin_: OK, that makes sense. What are the ideas in #1 which were agreed upon?
<Kat> lol
<illusivefing> +silence..+
<RustedSorrow> ........
<Merlin_> jameson - image support, looking into midi preloads, possible .ogg format
<Merlin_> They were agreed in #1
<jameson> OK. These are extensions and bug fixes.
<illusivefing> we also agreed that we wouldn't change dinkc but only add new commands
<Merlin_> oh, yes, and adding DinkC
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> but this is not #1
<Kat> who is #1?
<jameson> illusivefing: I don't have the slightest idea of why you did that, but it seems that you did.
<illusivefing> did what?
<jameson> Anyway, that's "features that can be added once the source code has been cleaned up and modularised" stuff.
<Kat> I agreed with illusivefing
<Merlin_> correct
<RustedSorrow> wait wait
<RustedSorrow> proposition!
<jameson> illusivefing: Agreed on not re-designing DinkC from scratch or using an existing interpreter, and to translate DinkC programs into it.
<RustedSorrow> !!1
<Kat> What RS?
<RustedSorrow> :::REPLACE PROGRAMING LANGUAGE:::
<illusivefing> and what is wrong with that?
<RustedSorrow> or modify it
<Merlin_> *** Remember, before we can implement any of the features, a source code cleanup is necessary ***
* AmoebaLord is more confused then even Kat
<Kat> lol
<Eldron> #1 now..
<jameson> illusivefing: I haven't used DinkC, but everything I've heard about it sounds pretty horrible.
<RustedSorrow> i'm the most confused!
<Eldron> How shall we go about cleaning the source?
<jameson> Merlin_: You're right, sorry for getting off-topic.
<Kat> <see's that word *cleanup* again>
<illusivefing> jameson, the hell with that, we're talking about reverse-compatability
<Merlin_> Now, #3
<illusivefing> we're not talking about which system is better than another
<jameson> illusivefing: Let's postpone that discussion.
<illusivefing> agreed
<AmoebaLord> We are?
<Merlin_> | 3) Who are the contributors |
<Kat> #3?? we didn't have a #3
<Merlin_> yes, we did kat
<RustedSorrow> tea!
*** allikitten (~tal@=HMz1607.mlec.net) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<illusivefing> hello
<AmoebaLord> Alikitten!
<Merlin_> have a nice baby shower?
<Chrizum> hey alli
<allikitten> yo.
* AmoebaLord loves the star kitten
<illusivefing> too many showers today, my cousin is having a wedding shower at my house today
<Kat> Heya Ali (thank god another woman)
<allikitten> Um, the baby shower was... interesting...
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> lol
<Chrizum> what are you talking about, jameson? dinkc is not all that horrible. it just needs more.. stuff
<illusivefing> and hey, i took a shower this morning
<allikitten> I've never been to one before. but it was amusing.
<RustedSorrow> alli!
<Merlin_> we're on topic 3, guys
<Merlin_> Who's going to do all this
<allikitten> no babies rained from the sky, though.
<Kat> I thought we we talking about #3?
<jameson> Merlin_: Contributors to what? Dink in any way? The Dink Project?
<Eldron> but what happened with #1?
<Merlin_> jameosn: Yes
<Kat> We all agreed...we are on #3
<Merlin_> We can go back to #1 after
<Merlin_> now
<Eldron> hmm true
<Merlin_> Who can contribute to what
<Merlin_> ?
<illusivefing> is anyone keeping a written log on what has been fully agreed upon so far?
<Eldron> contributors.. well, those who have abilities and are willing to contribute?
<Kat> I review DMods
<Merlin_> illusivefing: I'll make a whitepaper based on this log after
<illusivefing> as i said at one point, i'll contribute as much as i can, but only after the source is cleeaned up
<Merlin_> Well, we need to do that
<Kat> and make witty (??) remarks
<illusivefing> okay, tha'll be great
<Eldron> but then..
<Eldron> mix of #1 and #3.. who will do the cleaning?
<illusivefing> +steps away+
<Eldron> in plural
<Merlin_> 1 person can't do it all
<Kat> can we use another word than *cleaned or clean up*?
<Eldron> which ones will do the cleaning?
<illusivefing> how would multiple people do it at the same time though?
<RustedSorrow> what is 'cleaning'?
<jameson> Which approach will we take for cleaning up?
<Merlin_> I can only do some of it
<Eldron> actually, i'll be willing to help with the cleaning
<Eldron> and jameson just mentioned something that I've been whining about
<Eldron> #1!
<Eldron> well
<RustedSorrow> just press ctrl+a and it's clean!
<illusivefing> lol
<AmoebaLord> But like the cleaning of a house, Seth's script cleaning never ends
<Merlin_> You wish
<jameson> We could: (a) Just examine and document (e.g. on the dink-develop mailing list)
<Kat> Ali...you bring anything to eat?? RS has made Tea...
<jameson> (b) Examine and re-label, document in the sources, but not re-factor
<jameson> (c) Re-factor as we go along, whenever we find this appropriate
<illusivefing> ...is there a "find/replace" option?
<illusivefing>
<Eldron> a
<Eldron> and then ripping apart
<Merlin_> I think b/c are appropriate
<Eldron> main step would be to split the dink source up
<jameson> Each of these steps followed by a (temporarily) final design discussion and complete refactoring.
<allikitten> Well, Tal and I were going to go to Hardee's, but that plan kinda fell through, so now he's eating something called "pimento cheese"
<Eldron> but we cant do that until we knows exactly what everything does
<Merlin_> No 250kb .h files allowed!
<allikitten> but I don't think he wants to share with you guys...
<jameson> Merlin_: I agree. (a) is really just a weakened version of (b), with little gain.
<Kat> yuckky....lol
<illusivefing> think about this, merlin
<illusivefing> the header file is shared between the main game and dinkedit
<Merlin_> so?
<illusivefing> brb again
<Kat> again?
<Merlin_> We just have to add more #includes to dink edit
<Merlin_> not very hard
<RustedSorrow> <makin' toast>
<Merlin_> with jam!
<Merlin_> ?
<Kat> RS,,,got any jam?
<illusivefing> okay i'm back
<illusivefing> phone keeps ringing
<jameson> Well, there is such a thing as libraries...
<Kat> strawberry??
<RustedSorrow> margarine
<illusivefing> well, if you split the code up, then you would be using multiple header files...which...wait a minute, nevermind
<allikitten> so, anyways, I was just checking up on you guys to see how you're doing... I'm going to go pounce on Tal now.
<illusivefing>
<jameson> (Don't have to be dynamic, even.)
<RustedSorrow> let's shutup now
<illusivefing> that would actually be cleaner than the way it is right now
* AmoebaLord thinks that illusivefig is lying
<Merlin_> +imitates steve irwin+ Have fun mateys
<illusivefing> lol
*** Signoff: allikitten (QUIT: )
<Eldron> but first things first.. documenting..
<Kat> and watch you drink tea and eat toast?? lol
<Merlin_> Yes - commenting is a MUST
<Eldron> most functions are easy to figure out what they do
<illusivefing> i think sethjoy is a variable that controls joystick functionality
<jameson> illusivefing: Many things would be cleaner than the way things are done now. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that, no matter how much I respect Seth's work, this source code should not be taken as an example of how C programs should be written.
<Merlin_> but what about labels like "seth_joy"
<Eldron> lets keep those labels as they are
* AmoebaLord thinks that we should comment over seth's lousy spelling
<Eldron> until we have everything documented
<Merlin_> LOL
<illusivefing> somehow, i already knew that, jameson
<Eldron> and ready to break it apart..
<Kat> seth was young then...
* AmoebaLord also thinks that we should rename all of hos variables
<Merlin_> *relatively*
<Eldron> playing dink is like.. going to mcdonalds..
<Eldron> you never know how they make the hamburger..
<Merlin_> ewwwww
<jameson> illusivefing: Sorry, I wanted to state this more generally (not to you in particular), just so that no one gets the wrong idea from looking at the sources.
<Eldron> and you dont want to know what they put in it
<AmoebaLord> Only without the ostriche meat
<Eldron> but its still pretty tasty
<illusivefing> jameson:forgiven,
<Merlin_> it's more like rat meat
<Kat> ehhh...glad I am a vegitariab
<AmoebaLord> I once drew a picture of how they make their BLTs
<Merlin_> LOL
<Chrizum> lol
<illusivefing> never eat at burger
<illusivefing> king
<AmoebaLord> The first step: Donkies poo to make the bacon
<illusivefing> at least not the one in my town
<jameson> OK, any hard feelings against approach (b) or approach (c) by anyone who wants to contribute?
<Merlin_> okay, that's enough!
<jameson> There is a lot of noise in this channel.
* AmoebaLord thinks that the rest of my drawing is too gross to discuss
<illusivefing> whoops
<Eldron> lets keep the talk on topic
<Eldron> and.. everything else in pm or something
<Merlin_> I think b or c is a good idea
<illusivefing> b or c?
<Merlin_> however, what do you mean by "re-factor"
<Merlin_> -- silence ---
<illusivefing> who?
<Merlin_> jameson
<jameson> Taking the entire code, or a sub-part of it, and structurally re-arranging it (removing global variables and replacing them by command-line arguments or object/class contexts, re-naming functions, removing duplicate functions, documenting code, removing unneccessary interdependencies between pieces of code, removing accesses to "internal" information between proposed modules)
<Merlin_> are you going to do all that?
*** Signoff: Kat (QUIT: Trillian ((Link: http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)http://www.ceruleanstudios.com))
<Merlin_>
<jameson> I'm not sure if that's the "official" definition, but that's how I like to think of it.
<Eldron> we need to split up the source before changing it imo
<Merlin_> well, then let's do B
<illusivefing> what is b?
<illusivefing> i'm confused
<jameson> Merlin_: No. The things I mentioned are examples, not requirements, for re-factoring
* AmoebaLord thinks jameson has a good idea
<Merlin_> (b) Examine and re-label, document in the sources, but not re-factor
<illusivefing> oh, i see it now
<Merlin_> what do you think?
<illusivefing> re-factoring sounds like it would take a lot of work
<jameson> How about a conservative (c)? We focus on examining and re-labelling, doing re-factoring only when the code we're dealing with is really gross and the structural changes are evident?
<Merlin_> I agree
<Merlin_> we should do that
<illusivefing> of course, anything with this source code is going to take a lot of work
<jameson> OK, then (1) is settled.
<illusivefing> so it might actually be worth the trouble
<Merlin_> you mean c, jameson?
<Chrizum> I vote for c
<Merlin_> I'll say the conservative c
<Eldron> lets stick with C for now
<illusivefing> c for me
<Merlin_> alright, C it is
<Eldron> When we have a clean source we can decide for something else
<Eldron> if we wish to
<Merlin_> Okay, now we need to talk about the Soruceforge
<Merlin_> projet
<jameson> Merlin_: I meant #1 ("Discussion of the direction of the source"), actually... I think it's a little too early to discuss what to do beyond that. Although this might make for a nice discussion once the agenda is through. I still need to argue with illusivefing about DinkC, after all
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> YEs
<Eldron> Im with illusive on the dinkc issue
<illusivefing> whoohoo! people on my side
<Merlin_> Well, once we get a clean source
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> then, I'm with illusive...
<jameson> OK. Apparently, neither you nor redink1 have shell access ATM. For how long have you had your SF accounts?
<Merlin_> 4 days
<illusivefing> 3 days for me
<jameson> (I don't think there's a way for me to activate this; that's why I'm asking).
<jameson> Then it's possible that this simply hasn't been propagated downwards yet.
<Merlin_> well, how long does it take?
<jameson> That's a problem. However, I botchered the initial CVS checkin anyway. As a remedy, I can offer CVS on my (much slower) server at home.
<Eldron> oh btw
<Eldron> can you add me?
<Eldron> I already had my account since long back
<Eldron> "eldron"
<Merlin_> I'm "aerea"
<jameson> Merlin_: I don't know. I know that, a few weeks ago, public CVS was about a week behind. They're having a little trouble scaling up, apparently. I know I had to wait a day or two before my shell access worked...
<Merlin_> but you already have that
<jameson> Eldron: I'll /msg you.
<Merlin_> oh, okay
<illusivefing> is beuc idling or is actually planning on coming back?
<Merlin_> jameson: we should make 1 person the admin of boards, 1 the admin of the website, 1 the admin of files, 1 the admin of tasks, 1 admin for everything
<Merlin_> etc.
<jameson> Merlin_: Do we need boards? Recall that there already is The Dink Network, with lots of 'em...
<Merlin_> jameson: I was thinking that it would be a source-code only board for developers
<Eldron> without the trolling and unneeded spam
<Merlin_> exactly
<Merlin_> jameson?
<jameson> Personally, I'd prefer a mailing list for that.
<Merlin_> Well, i guess it would work better
<jameson> Doesn't require whacking the web browser's reload shortcut.
<illusivefing> organized chats would be a good idea too
<Merlin_> I can post when if I had access to the news board
<Merlin_> Like - every week
<jameson> We already have a dink-develop mailing list.
<AmoebaLord> I remember tat
<jameson> News board on the dink.sourceforge.net page, or on TDN?
<illusivefing> both would be nice
<Merlin_> Well, I was updating the website, and I think it should be on the project page
*** Signoff: AmoebaLord (QUIT: )
<jameson> I'll make sure you have access to the news stuff.
<Merlin_> cool, thanks
<illusivefing> what else have we not covered yet?
<Merlin_> I would say that this chat is slowly comming to a halt
<illusivefing> it's just getting started
<Merlin_> alright, sleepy boy
<Merlin_>
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> feature request list
<illusivefing> shall we move on to that?
<Merlin_> Well, that's on the tasks board
<illusivefing> true, but right now we could tell each other why a feature would or wouldn't be a good idea without having to wait 3 hours for a reply
<jameson> How about postponing features to the end?
<Merlin_> yes, source cleaning is first
<illusivefing> hm, i suppose you're right
<illusivefing> about how long do you think it will take to clean the source?
<Merlin_> Depends on how fast we work
<illusivefing> days, weeks, or months?
<illusivefing> rough estimation
<Merlin_> probably days
<Eldron> I'd guess a month
<Eldron> lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> maybe weeks
<Eldron> well.. between two-three weeks
<Merlin_> how much time a day do you dedicate to dink?
<Eldron> who?
<Merlin_> everyone
<illusivefing> all of the day that i'm not looking at pr0n or eating...or...sleeping
<Eldron> oh
<Eldron> well, its summer vacation anyway
<Merlin_> illusivefing: so, that's about half-an-hour
<Merlin_>
<Eldron> I'll have nothing to do for two weeks
<illusivefing> lol just about
<jameson> Merlin_: About half an hour to an hour every second day

illusivefing>
<Merlin_> for another month
<Eldron> but we'll need to know where to start then
<jameson> Merlin_: I wish that was true for me, too
<illusivefing> i dunno, now that i think about it
<illusivefing> maybe i CAN help with the source code cleanup
<Merlin_> jameson: I wish it would STAY true
<Merlin_> well, illusive fing - you're on IRC all the time, arent you?
<illusivefing> pretty much
<Merlin_> or was that Eldron
<illusivefing> i have nothing else to do all day
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> when my comp is on Im on irc
<Merlin_> I *wish CVS was up
<Merlin_> hang on, let me chech again
<Merlin_> it says
<Merlin_> "This is a restricted shell account"
<illusivefing> sucks
*** Chrizum is Chrizum@=HVowhoi690-68-222-52.adsl.zonnet.nl (Chris)
*** on channels: #DinkSmallwood
*** on irc via server sapphire.liveharmony.org (liveHarmony -- www.liveharmony.org)
*** Chrizum has been idle 19 minutes, signed on at Sat Jul 19 13:27:16 2003
<jameson> Merlin_: I'll set up CVS on signine.yi.org.
<illusivefing> does it make any difference if you use visual c++ or dev c++?
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> atm yes
<illusivefing> +sigh+
<Merlin_> We'll try to fix that
<Merlin_> brb
<illusivefing> all i have is intro edition of visual c++
* Merlin_ is away: I'm busy
<illusivefing> and devc++
<jameson> BTW, I have another issue I think we should discuss, namely the future of TDP licensing. Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. Some people have suggested to move to a copyleft license, though, to ensure that no one "hijacks" their extensions.
<Eldron> actually, thats true
<illusivefing> brb
<Eldron> we cant keep tdp with seths license..
<jameson> We can, but we'll have to get rid of the files not covered by it.
<Eldron> didn't we?
<jameson> Technically, yes. But they're still required for compilation.
<Eldron> not really
<Eldron> well
<Eldron> actuall yes
<jameson> I put up a separate zip file which includes them so people can download and install it on top of CVS.
<Eldron> but we'll just have to remove the stuff connecting them
<jameson> Yes. I don't think this will be a major issue.
<illusivefing> ok i'm back
<illusivefing> my mom lied
<illusivefing> there's no wedding shower this afternoon
<jameson> Maybe using something more modern like Subversion or arch would be a possibility as well, but I'd like not to install these on a public machine I have to administrate, as they're inherently more prone to security exploits...
* Merlin_ is back (gone 00:09:19)
<RustedSorrow> WHAT DID i MISS?
<illusivefing> nothing important
<RustedSorrow> good
<RustedSorrow> i wanna ask something
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Merlin_> ok
<RustedSorrow> now please shutup
<illusivefing> yessuhmassah
<RustedSorrow> if someone makes some great midification to the engine
<RustedSorrow> it is put in the dink project
<RustedSorrow> right?
<Merlin_> maybe
<RustedSorrow> ok let's say it is
<RustedSorrow> now some other guy makes something else cool
<Merlin_> that's more of a probably
<RustedSorrow> and will it those to be combined to one or two seperate things?
<illusivefing> +going through second liter of caffeine+
<RustedSorrow> hello?
<Merlin_> can you give us an example?
<RustedSorrow> ok
<Eldron> well
<RustedSorrow> the dink project
<Eldron> if those guys were both playing with the cvs of tdp
<RustedSorrow> ???
<Merlin_> and....?
<Eldron> and if their modifications to the source were well made..
<illusivefing> he's saying if someone has a great idea and it becomes a project, and another person has a great idea to add to the project, would they be combined into one project file?
<RustedSorrow> yes!
<Merlin_> ohhhh!!
<illusivefing> i would think they would
<RustedSorrow> plese let me talk!
<Merlin_> probably
<illusivefing> lol
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Please continue.
<RustedSorrow> i think there should be one file that is updating time and time again
<Merlin_> that's what CVS is for
<RustedSorrow> like yesterday it was just mp3 support and tpday it's mp3 support and something else new
<RustedSorrow> today
<illusivefing> i think there should be a safe copy of the engine also, a stable one for each new generation of versions
<Eldron> we'll
<Merlin_> yes
<Eldron> that'll be like an 'release'
<Eldron> but the cvs will be updated daily
<illusivefing> more like a backup is what i'm thinking of...like
<Merlin_> once it goes though testing
<jameson> We're using something called a 'revision control system' (it sounds like no one here is familiar with this, which is why I should probably explain it).
<Merlin_> yes, like an old version
<RustedSorrow> ok let me talk again
<Merlin_> i thought it was CVS?
<jameson> A revision control system, such as CVS, stores all old version of a program.
<jameson> Furthermore, it allows more than one person to work on a program at the same time, and tries to merge changes done by people concurrently.
<illusivefing> that's good then
<Merlin_> it backups into nightly tarbals
<RustedSorrow> do like this "the dink engine with ALL the new stuff"
<jameson> This doesn't work perfectly, of course, and sometimes requires user interaction if changes overlap.
<Eldron> rusted, well, it'll be mostly improved stuff with the same base..
<RustedSorrow> "dink engine wiht only an exact feature
<Eldron> it'll work the same, but it'll have more features
<RustedSorrow> but that's not whatt i want to say?
<Merlin_> +looks outisde+ "ahhhh!" +Merlin_ is blinded+
<RustedSorrow> will it be one uploading file or 100 of files with diffrient features!
<illusivefing> is merlin becoming vampirish as well?
<Merlin_> would you like me to show you?
<illusivefing> sure
<Merlin_> +evil slurping sounds+
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<illusivefing> let's answer rusted's question
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> yes master
<RustedSorrow> go suck a dog
<illusivefing> it's yessuhmassah to you
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> 's b;ood
<Merlin_> Rs, is that what you do in your spare time?
<Merlin_> do you like dogs?
<RustedSorrow> it was like a command lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_>
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Revision managers abstract over files.
<Eldron> rusted, there'll always be a latest 'official' release..
<illusivefing> so what else has not been covered in the last 2 1/2 hours?
<Beuc> I am back eventually, and I fastly read the log
<jameson> RustedSorrow: This means that you don't (normally, you can do that if you want to) update one file, but, rather, merge all of your changes into the main tree.
<Merlin_> And, there will always be a development release
<RustedSorrow> like one file wiht all features?
<Merlin_> Like, nightly tarballs of the CVS tree
<jameson> It also means that it does not matter at all whether you have your source code split over hundreds or files or everything in one big, ugly file.
<Eldron> rusted, as long as you have the latest release you'll be able to run most dmods
<RustedSorrow> not a dmod an engine~
<illusivefing> that's another thing we need to do eventually, argue to jameson why we can't just rebuild dinkc
<Merlin_> well, it works as it is now
<Eldron> dink is opensourced, if someone is good enough to use an advanced scripting language, then he might aswell modify the source instead.. thats the main argument for keeping dinkc as it is
<Beuc> Well, will we know more about what to do tomorrow explicitely?
<Eldron> internally we can improve dinkc in speed and structure, but externally it should work the same..
<jameson> Seeing that we probably should wait for Beuc before discussing the licensing stuff (and that we don't seem to have anything else on the agenda, I believe), we might as well discuss DinkC...
<illusivefing> and if we rebuilt the language, then older dmods would not run unless the code was somehow translated
<RustedSorrow> 00:10 at my place
<Merlin_> where are you, the netherlands?
<jameson> Eldron: Modifying the source to accomodate the needs of a dmod and thus creating a locally specialised version does not make much sense.
<jameson> It means that all improvements added to the engine after the branch will be lost, unless considerable effort is put into keeping it up to sync.
<Merlin_> Well, we could include an engine check to check for the dink.exe in the d-mod directory
<jameson> As such, it is much more appropriate to work with scripts.
<Eldron> but dinkc can still be powerful enough
<RustedSorrow> dinkc is a mistery to me
*** Signoff: Beuc (QUIT: Download Gaim [(Link: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])
<Eldron> rusted.. dinkc has a good structure, and it CAN be given more power
<Eldron> but we cant change the shape of it
<jameson> From what I've heard, DinkC is essentially an untyped assembly language, triggered by events in the main engine.
<illusivefing> and nothing is wrong with that, jameson
*** Beuc (~Sylvain@=B1caq-508-76-614-101.ppp.tiscali.fr) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Eldron> it works well with the game
<illusivefing> it works just fine as it is, structually
<Eldron> but it lacks the features
<RustedSorrow> i think dinkc is a nice language
<Eldron> no one has ever complained about dinkc in how its structured..
<illusivefing> very user-friendly compared to an actual programming language
<RustedSorrow> :::question:::
<RustedSorrow> was it hard to you to learn dinkc?
<Merlin_> +turns on pocket pc and plays solitare+
<Eldron> rusted, well, it was C
<RustedSorrow> ?
<illusivefing> not for me
<Eldron> meaning, its not complicated.
<Beuc> I am back now, I do not know whether my posts were uploaded when I came back 5 min ago
<Eldron> its event-driven and has a bunch of functions..
<Eldron> nothing more complicated than that
<jameson> OK, so what should we do about licensing?
<RustedSorrow> what licensing
<jameson> TDP licensing.
<RustedSorrow> if you are a good person you don't need licensing
<illusivefing> this is the part where i step aside and let you deal with this
<illusivefing>
<jameson> Right now, it's under Seth's BSD-ish license. However, I rather like the idea of copylefting it...
<Eldron> well, we'll remove those files we cant use and then switch it to something more fitting..
<jameson> RustedSorrow: You need licensing so people are allowed to use your source code
<RustedSorrow> why
<jameson> Question is: Should we stay BSD-ish, or copyleft it?
<RustedSorrow> can you just let them?
<Beuc> And not abuse of it.
<Merlin_> If we include those copyrighted files, we're not supposed to use SF
<Eldron> we dont need the copyrighted files anyway
<illusivefing> what exactly is copyleft?
<Eldron> they are not crucial
<Beuc> RS: the "why" is mainly to avoid emailing people each time anybody want to use the project.
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes, you can let them. But you need to write down what you want to allow them to do, or otherwise they'll violate copyright law.
<RustedSorrow> pffft
<Merlin_> well, could we rewrite them?
<RustedSorrow> stupid
<Merlin_> or just use a new format?
<RustedSorrow> are you a corporation?
<illusivefing> or...even better yet, we could ask seth to rewrite it
<RustedSorrow> are you gonna punish them for violating?
<Beuc> Copyleft is a way to use copyright to keep a project free for everyone.
<jameson> The copyrighted files could be rewritten pretty straightforwardly, as far as I can tell (and should be, to allow a more modular (and portable) approach)
<illusivefing> oh okay, that's cool
<Merlin_> hehe seth... you're kidding?
<illusivefing> lol yes i am
<illusivefing>
<illusivefing> not to say that it's not worth a shot though
<illusivefing> though maybe that would be pushing it
<RustedSorrow> uh... .
<RustedSorrow> JAN 5 - NEW PHOTOS of dink author scratcher.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 31 - new surveys that totally suck.
<RustedSorrow> DEC 13 - another funny addition of dink surveys with the one and only phoenix, check it out now! i said now, pinko!
<RustedSorrow> DEC 12 - ive got it! update info! whenever i get new pictures or surveys or links or whhhhhhhatever, i will put it here so that you homeys know whats going on. the site has a new layout and graphics and such, if you havent noticed already. i know it is pretty terrible... but i dont care that much. anyway...
<RustedSorrow> NEW PHOTOS of dink smallwood creater seth, and dinker tal the templar.
<RustedSorrow> NEW SURVEYS of quite a few dinkers as well, the most recent claiming to be a prophet.
<RustedSorrow> something is wrong with the counter... i dont know what... it will stay as is for now.
<RustedSorrow> -josh
<jameson> The difference betwen BSDish licenses and copyleft licenses (i.e., the (L)GPL, for all practical purposes) is that the latter require anyone who modifies the source code to either keep the changes to him/herself, or, whenever that person publishes a binary version, to make the source code available on request.
<RustedSorrow> what??
<RustedSorrow> sorry guys!
<RustedSorrow> very very sorry
<illusivefing> i'ts okay
<illusivefing> as long as it was an accident
<illusivefing>
<RustedSorrow> i pressed ctrl v
<Merlin_> it was, right?
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> are we waiting for something?
<RustedSorrow> no
<illusivefing> yes
<Beuc> Yep, vote on licencing
<Merlin_> ooookay
<RustedSorrow> but i can do a kickflip
<Merlin_> oh
<illusivefing> i say copyleft
<illusivefing> lol
<Beuc> GPL prevents people from taking our jobs and conceil the source code like Seth like (with the issues we know).
<Merlin_> I go copyleft
<jameson> So, to make this more concrete, right now it's possible that TDP could come up with a great and grand number of improvements and clean-ups. Then, some person comes along, takes TDP, builds the best D-Mod ever, using some extensions to TDP, but only releases the specific version of TDP as a binary for PPC Amiga-OS. With a GPL-ish license, he would be required to release the sources to the modified TDP interpreter.
<illusivefing> brb i'm making a burger
<Beuc> illusivefing: (Link: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html)http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html
<Merlin_> what about the QPL?
<Merlin_> or Mozilla?
<RustedSorrow> WAIT!
<Merlin_> how long?
<RustedSorrow> why do we need the frekin' cupyright!
<RustedSorrow> i mean do you need it?
<Merlin_> somebody else explain it
<jameson> RustedSorrow: Yes.
<RustedSorrow> i wouldn't
<Eldron> copyleft is good
<RustedSorrow> is it for you or for seth?
<Beuc> For our project. Seth's licence is already defined.
<RustedSorrow> so
<Beuc> So anybody can make his project and conceil the code, but nobody can use ours like that
<illusivefing> is it possible for us to write a copyright on tdp?
<Beuc> Yes, our changes are copyrighted.
<jameson> illusivefing: We're talking about two separate issues here-- copyright and licensing are not the same.
<Beuc> "PORTIONS" copyright Seth.
<jameson> Beuc is exactly right about the copyright.
<illusivefing> license***
<illusivefing> bleh
<jameson> We can modify the license if it is compatible with the original one, i.e. if we don't violate the original one.
<RustedSorrow> bah!
<illusivefing> <<-- sleepy
<illusivefing> that's good
<Merlin_> what about the MPL?
<RustedSorrow> what about it/
<jameson> Thanks to Seth's changes to his license prior to releasing it, it should be compatible with ours.
<jameson> Merlin_: I don't know the details of the MPL or the QPL.
<Beuc> The MPL is incompatible with the GPL and prevents us from using any GPL software.
<Beuc> QPL only alllow changes as patches.
<jameson> I'm quite happy with the GPL, as it allows me to re-use my own code (which some other people have contributed to).
<RustedSorrow> M.A.S.H.-many ather stupid horses
*** XingXingXuum (XingXingXu@=F6w36n2wnm40b4053.telia.com) has joined channel #DinkSmallwood
<Merlin_> LONG excerpt conning
<Merlin_> MOZILLA PUBLIC LICENSE
<Merlin_> Version 1.1
<Merlin_> 1. Definitions.
<Merlin_> 1.0.1. "Commercial Use" means distribution or otherwise making the Covered Code available to a third party.
<Merlin_> 1.1. ''Contributor'' means each entity that creates or contributes to the creation of Modifications.
<Merlin_> 1.2. ''Contributor Version'' means the combination of the Original Code, prior Modifications used by a Contributor, and the Modifications made by that particular Contributor.
<Merlin_> 1.3. ''Covered Code'' means the Original Code or Modifications or the combination of the Original Code and Modifications, in each case including portions thereof.
<Beuc> Do not post the entire licence, we can get it online.
<Merlin_> 1.4. ''Electronic Distribution Mechanism'' means a mechanism generally accepted in the software development community for the electronic transfer of data.
<Merlin_> 1.5. ''Executable'' means Covered Code in any form other than Source Code.
<Merlin_> 1.6. ''Initial Developer'' means the individual or entity identified as the Initial Developer in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A.
<Merlin_> 1.7. ''Larger Work'' means a work which combines Covered Code or portions thereof with code not governed by the terms of this License.
<Merlin_> 1.8. ''License'' means this document.
<Merlin_> 1.8.1. "Licensable" means having the right to grant, to the maximum extent possible, whether at the time of the initial grant or subsequently acquired, any and all of the rights conveyed herein.
<Merlin_> 1.9. ''Modifications'' means any addition to or deletion from the substance or structure of either the Original Code or any previous Modifications. When Covered Code is released as a series of files, a Modification is:
<Merlin_> A. Any addition to or deletion from the contents of a file containing Original Code or previous Modifications.
<RustedSorrow> ooo
<Merlin_> B. Any new file that contains any part of the Original Code or previous Modifications.
<Merlin_>
<Merlin_> 1.10. ''Original Code'' means Source Code of computer software code which is described in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A as Original Code, and which, at th
<Merlin_> want more?
<Merlin_> he he
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> okay
<illusivefing> all i really care to know is: is that good?
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> i din't read anything
<Beuc> (Link: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html)http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html for a licence list
<illusivefing> same here
<RustedSorrow> WAIT! guys!
<RustedSorrow> let's leave the law sutff to those who know it
<jameson> These are only definitions, and don't tell us anything about the license itself. We'd have to read up on it in detail to judge whether it's useful.
<XingXingXuum> Would this be a discussion about the Dink Smallwood Source? If so, why are you talking about licenses?
<illusivefing> i'm not going to mess with that because i know little to nothing about licensing
<jameson> Question is: Is anyone uncomfortable with moving to the GPL as soon as we got rid of the files not covered by Seth's license (which, IIRC, would be a requirement)?
<illusivefing> this would be
<Merlin_> nope
<Beuc> Because we want to protect our work from misuse.
<illusivefing> no
<Beuc> neither do i
<RustedSorrow> so
<Merlin_> now, the LGPL or GPL?
<RustedSorrow> """topic change''''
<Eldron> gpl sounds fine
<XingXingXuum> Why do you even want to move to GPL? That license is a bit strict.
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<illusivefing> what's the difference?
<illusivefing> lol
<illusivefing> wait, don't answer that
<Beuc> LGPL would allow to link our work iin proprietary software.
<illusivefing> answer this: which one protects us more?
<Merlin_> lmao
<jameson> The difference is rather important...
<Beuc> too late
<illusivefing>
<Beuc> The GPL protects us more. LGPL is meant for special cases.
<Merlin_> +brings pillow to chair+
<jameson> The LGPL would allow people to distribute binary modifications which are required to run their D-Mods and which must be loaded into a sufficiently prepared (but LGPL'd) version of TDP.
<illusivefing> gpl sounds good to me then
<XingXingXuum> This is killing me already.
<illusivefing> wait...lgpl might actually be useful
<Beuc> In which case?
<illusivefing> in the case that people want to patch the engine to run their dmod
<RustedSorrow> hey! put a topic about this on the board!!
<jameson> XingXingXuum: So you'd sugget sticking with a BSDish license? Which practical advantage do you see in that?
<Beuc> They can with the GPL.
<jameson> Right, I was rather inaccurate.
<illusivefing> oh...shame on you jameson
<jameson> With the GPL, they would be required to distribute the sources to these binary modifications as well.
<illusivefing>
<jameson> That's the true difference.
<XingXingXuum> Actually, I'm not interested in talking about licenses.
<RustedSorrow> ok i'm rihting a topic what should write there?
<illusivefing> that wouldn't be so bad
<illusivefing> gpl it is then
<Eldron> that works
<Beuc> What are you interesting in XingXingXuum?
<Merlin_> how about Zlib license?
<RustedSorrow> hey!
<XingXingXuum> How many of you is even programmers and is planning to do any coding?
<jameson> OK. This is a rather final and sensitive issue, but it seems that those who have expressed interest in working on the project seem to favour the GPL.
<Beuc> Merlin!
<illusivefing> +raises hand halfway+
<Merlin_> I go with GPL
<Beuc> I plan to code.
<illusivefing> i plan to code after source cleanup
<RustedSorrow> i'm just interrupting
<Merlin_> we can see that
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> :x
<Merlin_> I plan to code
<Merlin_> Edlron?
<Eldron> yeh
<Merlin_> Eldron?
<Eldron> me too
<Merlin_> oh
<Merlin_> okay
<jameson> I'd like to work on porting it, and (to a less extent, not out of disinterest, but out of a lack of time) on the clean-up part.
<Merlin_> I would love to port it
<Merlin_> SDL!
<Eldron> sdl yea
<RustedSorrow> what are your plans?
<Merlin_> To clean up the source
<illusivefing> i plan to soil myself, then regroup and come up with another plan
<Merlin_> Haven't you been listening for the past hour?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> in what, illusive?
<illusivefing> what do you mean in what?
<illusivefing>
<Merlin_> soil yourself in what?
<RustedSorrow> for the past hour you have benn blabbering bout license
<illusivefing> in my pants
<Merlin_> no!
<Merlin_> i mean
<Merlin_> What will you soil yourself with?
<Beuc> Does anybody has a mac. I do not, but I will have access to one from october. Porting Dink to Mac would be easier with a Mac
<Eldron> sdl >
<Merlin_> I hate mac!
<jameson> I actually have an iBook... I'm not running MacOS or OS X on it, though.
<RustedSorrow> i had an OLD b&w mac
<RustedSorrow> oh yah!
<illusivefing> i have no idea
<Merlin_> | Announcement: Any more vital things to discuss before I go and make the whitepaper? |
<RustedSorrow> yawn
<Eldron> well, I can keep on going for another extra hours..
<illusivefing> actually, i had one thing
<Merlin_> ok
<illusivefing> i can't remember it though
<illusivefing> give me a moment
<RustedSorrow> lol
<illusivefing> lol
<Merlin_> + plays jeopardy song 93
<Merlin_> +
<Merlin_> +plays jeopardy song+
<illusivefing> i'll think of it later, surely this won't be the only meeting
<RustedSorrow> plays LMP-darbo diena
<Merlin_> of course
<Merlin_> | Official End of the Dink Chat |
<illusivefing> lol
<RustedSorrow> ahhhh
<Merlin_> Keep chatting aimlessly
<illusivefing> 2 1/2 hours and we only had about 3 major things worked out
<Merlin_> lol

wow i read all that
now im confused and dont remember the beggining
lol im joking thats huge!

Now that IS/WAS a 2 and a half hours chat.

I read some of that...then realized that if I continued my eyesmight shrivel up into...into... little shrivelled things...you get my point anyway.

little shrivelled things?
Little green dwarfs, pink elephants, black points?

every other sentecne is illusivefing lol...

and your point is? lol