Reply to Re: Let's talk terrorism
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Lots of replies, so I'll reply to some of it. I'm sure it'll be a long post again.
The Paris attackers had an accomplice from Syria
Yes, I heard that. However, this is about helping people and stopping terrorism. Both are good goals. The message that some are sending is that they are incompatible. This is not true. Sure, some refugees may be involved in attacks, just like there are people from many other groups. But to see if they are incompatible, the question is "would the attacks still have happened if the refugees were refused entry into the country?" For Paris (and any other deadly attacks I know of), the answer is "absolutely". Which means our refusal to help them does not prevent the attacks.
Didn't you hear about what happened in Cologne on New Year's?
That is an entirely different story, however. From what I understood, those were all refugees (although not all recently entered). The main problem seemed to be that they were not integrated well into the German society, so their ideas of what was normal (both for the women that were attacked, and for how they should response to it) did not align with the German norms. This is what I talked about before, how it is reasonable to have limits on the amount of refugees you take in as a country. Because there needs to be integration, and if there are too many of them, that doesn't work well. I don't know if the amount was the problem in Germany; it can also have been that their attempts at integration weren't effective. In any case, this is a real and serious issue that must be resolved.
Can you mention which positive contribution refugees have on their destination countries?
The same as for native citizens. People in a country generally have a positive contribution to society (at least on average, otherwise society wouldn't exist). I don't see why this would be any different for refugees.
Note that this is about those who have been admitted. Those who are in the procedure are often not allowed to work, and if the procedure takes long, that can cause problems in itself.
Refugees are people. Why would they (on average) be less productive for society than other people? I would expect them to be more productive if anything; they have shown to take initiative when they want to get something done.
[Religion tangent]
I think ya mistook christianity with judaism.
Jesus said that all the Jewish laws remained valid and that he had not come to abolish them. So anything from Judaism is also from Christianity. (The popular interpretation is what Paul wrote, that in fact Jesus did mean to abolish the Jewish laws. Jesus however, only said the opposite.) And for completeness: Muslims also have the Christian (and therefore the Jewish) holy books as their own; they just added one.
[/Religion tangent]
most "Syrian refugees" who come to Finland are actually immigrants from Iraq and Afghanistan.
I have no reason to doubt that. Are you suggesting that Iraq and Afganistan are totally safe, and those people don't deserve our help? I think (but I have done no research on it) that people who have made a dangerous journey where they needed to bribe people, trust nobody and lie about all sorts of things just to get to a safer place, aren't suddenly going to trust us. So of course they will tell lies. If they think they have a bigger chance that they may stay if they say they're from Syria, that's what they'll say.
The real solution here would be to somehow make sure they can have a good life in their country of origin. But that's very hard, and it's questionable whether we should even try it. One thing we absolutely should do is to stop making it worse. The US in particular floods the middle east with weapons, overthrows governments they don't like, etc. While it is debatable whether we should be involved in fixing things, I think it is obvious that doing those sorts of things is not the way to go. (Note that the same people who say that's good, are the ones who say we shouldn't help refugees.)
Many of them are actually doing far better in life than your average Finn.
I don't think I know many who are doing very well. The type of people you describe are usually quite poor. But if they are doing very well, given that taxes are reasonable in Europe (as opposed to the US, where they are far too low), that means they also pay a lot in taxes, so they are good for the economy.
Your suspicions about them sound like there is a problem with integration. I've had the same feeling when I was in Egypt; there culture doesn't feel right to me. That's not because it's wrong, but because it's different. Refugees need to adapt to fit in to our country; we need to help them with that.
What dafuq is that? I thought they were running from the war or some shit. What the hell are they doing ducking?
You realize that when they make a movie about criminals, they are hiring actors instead of real criminals? I'm sure they can do the same thing with any other group of people. Or non-people, for that matter.
But do they have sex? Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?
The Paris attackers had an accomplice from Syria
Yes, I heard that. However, this is about helping people and stopping terrorism. Both are good goals. The message that some are sending is that they are incompatible. This is not true. Sure, some refugees may be involved in attacks, just like there are people from many other groups. But to see if they are incompatible, the question is "would the attacks still have happened if the refugees were refused entry into the country?" For Paris (and any other deadly attacks I know of), the answer is "absolutely". Which means our refusal to help them does not prevent the attacks.
Didn't you hear about what happened in Cologne on New Year's?
That is an entirely different story, however. From what I understood, those were all refugees (although not all recently entered). The main problem seemed to be that they were not integrated well into the German society, so their ideas of what was normal (both for the women that were attacked, and for how they should response to it) did not align with the German norms. This is what I talked about before, how it is reasonable to have limits on the amount of refugees you take in as a country. Because there needs to be integration, and if there are too many of them, that doesn't work well. I don't know if the amount was the problem in Germany; it can also have been that their attempts at integration weren't effective. In any case, this is a real and serious issue that must be resolved.
Can you mention which positive contribution refugees have on their destination countries?
The same as for native citizens. People in a country generally have a positive contribution to society (at least on average, otherwise society wouldn't exist). I don't see why this would be any different for refugees.
Note that this is about those who have been admitted. Those who are in the procedure are often not allowed to work, and if the procedure takes long, that can cause problems in itself.
Refugees are people. Why would they (on average) be less productive for society than other people? I would expect them to be more productive if anything; they have shown to take initiative when they want to get something done.
[Religion tangent]
I think ya mistook christianity with judaism.
Jesus said that all the Jewish laws remained valid and that he had not come to abolish them. So anything from Judaism is also from Christianity. (The popular interpretation is what Paul wrote, that in fact Jesus did mean to abolish the Jewish laws. Jesus however, only said the opposite.) And for completeness: Muslims also have the Christian (and therefore the Jewish) holy books as their own; they just added one.
[/Religion tangent]
most "Syrian refugees" who come to Finland are actually immigrants from Iraq and Afghanistan.
I have no reason to doubt that. Are you suggesting that Iraq and Afganistan are totally safe, and those people don't deserve our help? I think (but I have done no research on it) that people who have made a dangerous journey where they needed to bribe people, trust nobody and lie about all sorts of things just to get to a safer place, aren't suddenly going to trust us. So of course they will tell lies. If they think they have a bigger chance that they may stay if they say they're from Syria, that's what they'll say.
The real solution here would be to somehow make sure they can have a good life in their country of origin. But that's very hard, and it's questionable whether we should even try it. One thing we absolutely should do is to stop making it worse. The US in particular floods the middle east with weapons, overthrows governments they don't like, etc. While it is debatable whether we should be involved in fixing things, I think it is obvious that doing those sorts of things is not the way to go. (Note that the same people who say that's good, are the ones who say we shouldn't help refugees.)
Many of them are actually doing far better in life than your average Finn.
I don't think I know many who are doing very well. The type of people you describe are usually quite poor. But if they are doing very well, given that taxes are reasonable in Europe (as opposed to the US, where they are far too low), that means they also pay a lot in taxes, so they are good for the economy.
Your suspicions about them sound like there is a problem with integration. I've had the same feeling when I was in Egypt; there culture doesn't feel right to me. That's not because it's wrong, but because it's different. Refugees need to adapt to fit in to our country; we need to help them with that.
What dafuq is that? I thought they were running from the war or some shit. What the hell are they doing ducking?
You realize that when they make a movie about criminals, they are hiring actors instead of real criminals? I'm sure they can do the same thing with any other group of people. Or non-people, for that matter.
But do they have sex? Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?
