Reply to Re: Let's talk power
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So here's the religious part.
attacking all Muslims when I am instead criticising their ideology
You implicitly assume that all Muslims treat their faith the same way, namely the way Isis says is the only True Way. You don't do this to Christians; you understand that the Planned Parenthood shooter was crazy and the fact that he believed the bible says he should kill people doesn't mean all other Christians must believe the same thing.
(not that I care particularly since most things are offensive to them)
You should meet some Muslims. I don't think I've ever met one who was offended easily. I wouldn't meet the likes of Isis, but I assure you there are many others.
Are you capable of separating one's views from the person who holds those views
No, I don't think I am. What do you mean by that? That people are not responsible for their beliefs? That, for example, if I would believe the Danish are evil and must die, that doesn't make me a bad person, I just have the wrong belief?
No, I don't agree with that. If I think a belief is wrong, the person believing it is also wrong. And in the example above, dangerous and in need of education. And if that doesn't work, imprisonment (if the belief would lead me to try and kill people).
I think our disagreement here is mostly based on our difference in how we view beliefs. To me they are personal; every Muslim has their own belief and should be judged (if at all) based on the details of that belief. You seem to think something like Islam is an objective thing and every Muslim must believe it in exactly the same way. Isis agrees with that; I don't.
Islam contains a lot of things like this which encourage violent behaviour.
This is debatable. I'm not saying it doesn't, but from what I heard (and I'm by no means an expert on this), "jihad" means "religious struggle" and can vary from "listening to your conscience" to "committing acts of terror".
Christianity includes the old testament (as does Islam, by the way; it also includes the new testament), which is full of violence as well. I grant you that Christianity may be easier to interpret as a peaceful religion, but it certainly isn't the only option.
The Jihadist attacks that Muslims commit are justified theologically by the Koran entirely whereas one may not say the same about Christianity and Dylann Roof.
They most certainly are. But while his motives were religious, they were even more racist, so the case is a bit blurry. The Planned Parenthood shooter is a more "clean" example for this. He has cited bible verses explaining his actions. Just because we agree that the bible doesn't call for killing, doesn't mean he does. Similarly, if a Muslim believes that Islam calls for peace, I'm not going to say it doesn't. All the religious books are contradictory. Nobody believes everything in there. Some think they do, but they obviously haven't read (or understood) them.
You are ... blaming these external factors for Muslims becoming Jihadists by suggesting they are "pushed" (by whom?)
By the media, by their church, by the community they live in. Let me explain with a hypothetical example: suppose you are religious, and most people around you have a different religion. You're allowed to go to school, but you always get bullied. You're not banned from bars and restaurants, but people look at you like you're scary and avoid you when you go there. The police pulls you over several times a month for no apparent reason. They seem to make up new rules to give you fines. In short: everyone seems to be against you. And then someone on the internet says that the others are all evil, and that you are better than them. That you are worthy. That in their group, you are not a second class person.
Do you think that sounds appealing? Of course it does. If that person then goes on to say that you should go and kill people because that makes you a better person, you may very well believe them (if they attempt this with many people, some percentage will).
Does that mean the terrorists are not responsible for their actions? Of course not. But instead of talking about blame, I prefer to talk about solutions. How can we make it less likely that a person will listen to that person on the internet?
My preference would be to convert them away from their religion. And I'm in favor of people trying that, but in many cases it won't work. The next option is to make them feel good. Because a large part of the reason that someone saying "you are worthy" is so appealing, is that they don't hear that a lot. People who are happy with their situation in life are less likely to follow radicals.
So to summarize that: I dislike religion in general. I don't know, but believe you when you say the koran can more easily be used to encourage violence than the bible. However, in both cases it is possible, and it's also possible to use either of them to encourage peace. I want society to make it less likely for people to choose the radical path. The radical path is encouraged by discriminating them. That, plus the fact that loving your fellow humans is the moral thing to do, is the reason I am against discriminating them.
35% of Muslims in France support suicide bombings in the name of defending Islam.
That is worrying. But think about it: they identify as part of Islam and feel that their religion is under attack. What they say is they think fighting back (even by killing people) is justified. Regardless of whether you agree, isn't it obvious that more attacks against Islam only make that situation worse? To be clear: I'm not saying we must welcome terrorists, or that their actions are justified. I'm saying we should welcome non-terrorist Muslims. Which is the overwhelming majority of them. We should welcome them and show them that there is no war against their religion. Because when they realize that, they will not want to fight back either. (I'm sure there are some crazy people who do, and those should be arrested just like any other terrorist.)
The acts of Islamic State are global
Yes, I agree that they are not identical to the KKK. But they are very similar in some respects. And in both cases blaming every member of the religion they use as justification is nonsense.
attacking all Muslims when I am instead criticising their ideology
You implicitly assume that all Muslims treat their faith the same way, namely the way Isis says is the only True Way. You don't do this to Christians; you understand that the Planned Parenthood shooter was crazy and the fact that he believed the bible says he should kill people doesn't mean all other Christians must believe the same thing.
(not that I care particularly since most things are offensive to them)
You should meet some Muslims. I don't think I've ever met one who was offended easily. I wouldn't meet the likes of Isis, but I assure you there are many others.
Are you capable of separating one's views from the person who holds those views
No, I don't think I am. What do you mean by that? That people are not responsible for their beliefs? That, for example, if I would believe the Danish are evil and must die, that doesn't make me a bad person, I just have the wrong belief?
No, I don't agree with that. If I think a belief is wrong, the person believing it is also wrong. And in the example above, dangerous and in need of education. And if that doesn't work, imprisonment (if the belief would lead me to try and kill people).
I think our disagreement here is mostly based on our difference in how we view beliefs. To me they are personal; every Muslim has their own belief and should be judged (if at all) based on the details of that belief. You seem to think something like Islam is an objective thing and every Muslim must believe it in exactly the same way. Isis agrees with that; I don't.
Islam contains a lot of things like this which encourage violent behaviour.
This is debatable. I'm not saying it doesn't, but from what I heard (and I'm by no means an expert on this), "jihad" means "religious struggle" and can vary from "listening to your conscience" to "committing acts of terror".
Christianity includes the old testament (as does Islam, by the way; it also includes the new testament), which is full of violence as well. I grant you that Christianity may be easier to interpret as a peaceful religion, but it certainly isn't the only option.
The Jihadist attacks that Muslims commit are justified theologically by the Koran entirely whereas one may not say the same about Christianity and Dylann Roof.
They most certainly are. But while his motives were religious, they were even more racist, so the case is a bit blurry. The Planned Parenthood shooter is a more "clean" example for this. He has cited bible verses explaining his actions. Just because we agree that the bible doesn't call for killing, doesn't mean he does. Similarly, if a Muslim believes that Islam calls for peace, I'm not going to say it doesn't. All the religious books are contradictory. Nobody believes everything in there. Some think they do, but they obviously haven't read (or understood) them.
You are ... blaming these external factors for Muslims becoming Jihadists by suggesting they are "pushed" (by whom?)
By the media, by their church, by the community they live in. Let me explain with a hypothetical example: suppose you are religious, and most people around you have a different religion. You're allowed to go to school, but you always get bullied. You're not banned from bars and restaurants, but people look at you like you're scary and avoid you when you go there. The police pulls you over several times a month for no apparent reason. They seem to make up new rules to give you fines. In short: everyone seems to be against you. And then someone on the internet says that the others are all evil, and that you are better than them. That you are worthy. That in their group, you are not a second class person.
Do you think that sounds appealing? Of course it does. If that person then goes on to say that you should go and kill people because that makes you a better person, you may very well believe them (if they attempt this with many people, some percentage will).
Does that mean the terrorists are not responsible for their actions? Of course not. But instead of talking about blame, I prefer to talk about solutions. How can we make it less likely that a person will listen to that person on the internet?
My preference would be to convert them away from their religion. And I'm in favor of people trying that, but in many cases it won't work. The next option is to make them feel good. Because a large part of the reason that someone saying "you are worthy" is so appealing, is that they don't hear that a lot. People who are happy with their situation in life are less likely to follow radicals.
So to summarize that: I dislike religion in general. I don't know, but believe you when you say the koran can more easily be used to encourage violence than the bible. However, in both cases it is possible, and it's also possible to use either of them to encourage peace. I want society to make it less likely for people to choose the radical path. The radical path is encouraged by discriminating them. That, plus the fact that loving your fellow humans is the moral thing to do, is the reason I am against discriminating them.
35% of Muslims in France support suicide bombings in the name of defending Islam.
That is worrying. But think about it: they identify as part of Islam and feel that their religion is under attack. What they say is they think fighting back (even by killing people) is justified. Regardless of whether you agree, isn't it obvious that more attacks against Islam only make that situation worse? To be clear: I'm not saying we must welcome terrorists, or that their actions are justified. I'm saying we should welcome non-terrorist Muslims. Which is the overwhelming majority of them. We should welcome them and show them that there is no war against their religion. Because when they realize that, they will not want to fight back either. (I'm sure there are some crazy people who do, and those should be arrested just like any other terrorist.)
The acts of Islamic State are global
Yes, I agree that they are not identical to the KKK. But they are very similar in some respects. And in both cases blaming every member of the religion they use as justification is nonsense.
