The Dink Network

Religion is retarted and if your religious your brainless sheep.

Don't go there.

While I sort of agree that some religious people are kinda brainless cause they can't see the facts proven to them (so are some scientists too), just don't go there.

Religion is retarted
BAaaaaaa !

Umm and retarded has a D in it hehe

Maybe you're not the best person on picking others' spelling, MsDink. Especially of those who are from around the globe.

The fact that you think religion is retarded proves that you are a brainless sheep, predator.

Religion certainly serves a purpose. It's just a matter of debate of whether it embodies truth as much as the believers claim it does.

Don't go there.

Well said.

/endthread

We'll never know the truth about anything, so it's pointless to debate. And it's even more pointless to say "Religion is retarded". Hell, the "truth" back in the days was that Earth was flat, now the "truth" is it's round. Who knows, in the next hundred years, the "truth" could be that it's square, or that it doesn't exist at all.

EDIT: dang, I guess I just "went there". Oh well. I'd say close this thread. It deserves to be locked UNLIKE CERTAIN OTHER THREADS.

Yes, you went there. Pandoras box has been opened!!

DDC is a religion, isnt it?

Check your post, Marpro. It's bleeding.

DinkDoodlar just shut up.
Religion is just an excuse to burn withes and sacrificing people by killing them. Overall its just an excuse for killing people
and how can you possibliy talk to this so called "GOD" by putting your hands together and bending down.

A funny fact, did you know that "God" as called in The Bible and other religious book, is actually a mistranslation of "Gods".

GODS

The only Gods I know.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you're just as bad as people who preach religion if you preach non-religion.

I'm a pastafarian by the way.

Ramen.

"I'm a pastafarian by the way."

Me too!

What's a withes? And we don't sacrifice people by killing them. The Aztecs did that. Don't go to terrorist this terrorist that because I can't do anything about them and I don't support them.

I did not say you do that DinkDoodlar i meant religious people in general i also meant witches

You sure try hard to start a fight!

If I had been here sooner, I would have said, 'Don't feed the troll', But alas, we have fed him.

I really shouldn't get into this, it's not a good idea to talk religion on the web. That being said-- do you think science is really without its faith based beliefs? They have yet to offer proof of evolution after all this time, and the structure of atoms is just best guess. To put in an argument in favour of religion-- quantum physicists are now saying everything is made of light which is a long standing religious belief common to most faiths.

A scientist, had to prove that God doesnt exist.
Guess what, he got a little nervous before going on stage, and was caught murmuring
"God please help me"

'Don't feed the troll' is about the oldest and most "retarted" ( ) Internet phrase you will ever find. It's just old.

I really shouldn't get into this, it's not a good idea to talk religion on the web. That being said-- do you think science is really without its faith based beliefs? They have yet to offer proof of evolution after all this time, and the structure of atoms is just best guess. To put in an argument in favour of religion-- quantum physicists are now saying everything is made of light which is a long standing religious belief common to most faiths.

Not really, it's just that many religious people never bother to look up why evolution best explains the evidence we have. We also know a lot about the structure of atoms and subatomic particles. It's not a guess.

I've always just tried to combine religion and science in the most sensible ways. My sophisticated guess is that Gods were really extraterrestrials. But we all know my thoughts about that already so I'll just shut up.

I'm pretty sure your just being a douche and trying to start an argument that wont solve a thing

The light science talks about is not the same light religion talks about

Also, our new member being a troll means he will never gain my respect.

This is a pretty entertaining take on religion. FYI, NSFW language in that link.

He only thinks religion is retarded because as most people are these days he wasn't open to it as a child that I am almost 100% sure of. Predator really you have no right to object to something you havnt take part in. Please these threads are pointless though enlightening and entertaining there pointless no one cares about your view on religion.

Word of the day:tolerance

/end thread. . It can go on if u guys like

Haven't taken*
They're*
I would go and add commas but I didn't feel like going on an editing rampage.

I am not that good ith things like comas and periods getting better hough

Predator: You're retarTed.

Predator's new Theme Song

Your the retard abosolution and if i had a chance i would bash you up.

Your the retard abosolution and if i had a chance i would bash you up

Ohhhhhh is that a threat.

No, that's just how mr. Predator wants to show his moral superiority. I mean by using violence you can prove anything.

The first time I saw this thread title, I thought it said, "Religion is restarted," and I thought it would be something interesting. Imagine my disappointment.

Why do we let people without an id even post on the forum?

CHUCK NORRIS IS GOD
HAIL NORRIS

Your the retard abosolution and if i had a chance i would bash you up.

Wow, never before have I wanted to defend Skorn from a troll than this moment right here.

Religion is just an excuse to burn withes and sacrificing people by killing them. Overall its just an excuse for killing people
and how can you possibliy talk to this so called "GOD" by putting your hands together and bending down.

Once again atheists demonstrate their' ignorance, bitterness and bigotry and remind why atheism turned me back to religion.

Religion is just an excuse to burn withes and sacrificing people by killing them. Overall its just an excuse for killing people
and how can you possibliy talk to this so called "GOD" by putting your hands together and bending down.

No, religion in and of itself is not an excuse to kill people, but those who say that their god or gods or goddesses require killing to achieve peace or tranquility are not following a real god. Christianity is not about killing people to please God. God sent his son, Jesus, to Earth to tell people that God will forgive them. He willingly let himself be crucified to bear the sins of man so that we may be forgiven. All if takes to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus, but there are people who twist the Bible into their own agenda, telling people that to get into heaven they must kill others in the name of God, but those people who speak in that way are the agents of Satan.
Also, it's not really required to pray to speak with Him, if and when I do pray, I close my eyes and bow my head. I don't go on my knees and put my hands together.

Predator, what you are doing is trying to turn faith into doubt by asking questions that any true Christian could answer. With me, I don't try and convert people to my religion, I am tolerant and don't say, "Well, this is wrong and you should follow my god because of this and that." I learn why they believe in their god. Personally, I believe in reincarnation and magic, though I rarely talk about it seriously with other people. Please, show some tolerance. My best friend, he's an atheist, but he's very tolerant about my faith.

You probaly all think i made this thread just to mae you angry thats wrong i am really against religion. I was tought religion in primary school that "GOD" is all around us and all of this nonsense i did not beleive it not even when i was 8 the bible is like what 2000 years and people in those days knew nothing about hygeine they throught the world was flat if you sail the seas you fall of the face of the earth but guess what thats all wrong.Out of all the religion on the earth Muslim is by far the worst i hate muslims more than any other religious group they come to western nation trying turn into a new iraq they think we should respect their culture and their customs but they dont respect western customs not one dam bit
they are evil and sick in the head and do not trust them on dam bit.

WHO RENAME THE FORUMS THATS NOT FUNNY YOU SPINELESS COWARD WHO EVER DID IT!!

There's a difference between not believing in religion and being super prejudice.

Listen k if you want to blame anyone for what the Muslims do blame America we are the ones who gave them every right to come here and do what there doing. Religion has saved many lives instead of having army's flee in fear leaving children women and men alike to be slaughtered they united under god and fought for there beliefs. Religion is what you believe in when there is nothing left to. About the world being flat and .shoot. It was scientists who came up with those Theories. It was scientists who first said the earth was flat. And I agree with Krisknox. My religion is based on magic we only killed and ate the attackers (I'm serious this happend) when the Romans attacked us. U know sure as .hell. Predator you would protect your home to.

WHO RENAME THE FORUMS THATS NOT FUNNY YOU SPINELESS COWARD WHO EVER DID IT!!

You are so happy! Most atheists I've met are so happy and positive, just like you, mr. breadstick

And, since many young atheists just eat the words of other non-believers as gospel truth, often inventing Bible verses to support their' preposterous claims, I demand you answer to these verses:
"21 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in." - Isaiah 40:21 & 22

and:

"27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he establishedthe fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man." - Proverbs 8:27-32

The Romans were never in Ireland
learn you histroy Mrgantoe.

Listen k if you want to blame anyone for what the Muslims do blame America

Err no!
Blame the Muslims for what the muslims do , Americans for what Americans do and so on - noone makes you do anything you dont wanna, each of us are responsible for our own actions and for carrying them out.

We should question everything and see if it lines up with what WE think and are happy to do, not the rest of the mob, cause at the end of the day - you have to live with whom you create yourself to be, because I believe there is a reconing at the end of all this and if I have to be explaining why I did something or said things, I wanna be pretty sure, in my heart, it was the right thing for ME to do.

There are people who call themselves <*insert religious name here* > who are usually the ones saying kill in Gods name blah blah - God didnt say it man did - how can we keep on blaming God for everything we do wrong, there is always consequences for our actions, all he did was give us all free will.

Edit: I actually find it funny that these so called athiests get so revved up about something they dont think exists heh

Hehehe so dumb I said listen. Nope they were in England were my religion originated never said anything bout ireland. Then the religion spread to Ireland. Listen next time so u don't look like an idiot thnx . Ms.dink it's a chain reaction America gave every one permission to practice there religion with freedom that is exactly what the Muslims are doing.

I dont need America to tell me if I can practice my Faith I will do it regardless of their or anyones opinion

That is how it should be ms.dink but it's not people go around who say they are better and do wrong things for the bad of it sadly that's the way things go on and we have to try to deal with it as best we can maybe this world is just hell for another I don't know .

Not to be rude here MrGantoe, but can you try some punctuation - I cannot figure out what you are saying (sorry - and I mean it nicely ok) I Can't tell where one thought ends and another begins therefore, losing the gist of what you are trying to say.

No offense taken I saw the smilie

Awesome So what did you mean ^ up there? I can't figure it out.

Wich one 1st or 2nd post

That is how it should be ms.dink but it's not people go around who say they are better and do wrong things for the bad of it sadly that's the way things go on and we have to try to deal with it as best we can maybe this world is just hell for another I don't know .

This lot

I'm saying that you should have the right to practice your religion any way you want to. And that there are just bad people who try to take advantage of others saying there better using others to do there dirty deeds maybe this world is just hell for another.

Ahhhh I agree with that too. Thanks - way easier to understand, (Appreciate it).
People use religion as a means to their own ends sometimes - and others suffer because of it.

The Islamic extremists are doing a Hitler: they blame all their' problems on Western Society, especially Americans. Unfortunately, non-fanatical Muslims are often sympathetic to these delusional fools as many people in the Third Reich were deceived by the propaganda and lies of the leaders.

1.ms.dink your welcome
2.I agree with both of you

Out of all the religion on the earth Muslim is by far the worst i hate muslims more than any other religious group they come to western nation trying turn into a new iraq...

Okay, stop just one God danged minute. Now you're taking an already bad argument and turning it into a hatred-filled slanderfest. I have no reason to hate the Muslims in general, in fact if a muslim came up to me and gave me an intelligent conversation, I would speak to him as I would a fellow Christian. It is the people who twist their teachings so that those who listen to the twisted preachings do their bidding, those are the people I absolutely hate with ever fiber of my being. I do not know what purpose you came here to fulfill, but I will not abide by you just blatantly spreading messages of hatred and slander to anybody who will listen. So please, either straighten your act out and actually do something constructive, or get out of this Forum and never show your face again.

People use religion as a means to their own ends sometimes - and others suffer because of it.

We have to wonder why: people who have built their world view strongly on faith have already suspended logic and evidence for whatever they think about the world. It's precisely these people who can be told anything because religious claims are rarely if ever verifiable.

For example, it's rather easy to destroy someone's personality and psychology and replace it with your own ideas about heaven, terrorism and suicide-bombing - it happens all the time in some countries.

Similarly, children around the world are also told what to believe at a young age from their parents. That just makes the beliefs arbitrary, doesn't it? You just end up believing what the people around you believe.

However, it all boils down to choice. I know the nature/nurture argument - regardless, almost every human maintains freedom of choice, regardless of how much opposition they must face. Take for example the rest of the bin Laden brothers. They had almost identical backgrounds to Osama, but chose not to succumb to hatred and malice.

I don't think our freedom of choice is as big as some claim it is. In theory we could all choose to be decent citizens. In reality many crimes are committed due to circumstances or lack of alternatives.

There are many biographies of people who have a history of abuse, violence and lack of education and who end up killing someone for money and drugs.. I think many of us, if we had lived such a life, would have done the same. There's no reason to think we would have made better choices, so to speak.

If you are never presented with a path out of your misery and you don't see it yourself either, the misery continues. For us it's easy to speak because we have education and a future.. others are not so fortunate.

Yet many children of abusive, alcoholic parents turn out to be upstanding citizens and others turn out to be abusive alcoholics.

That is true. I just don't think it's due to choice alone that some become good parents while others copy the behavior of their parents. If it was choice, then it would be irrational for the people to choose to become abusive alcoholics. People would not choose that, would they? Habits and circumstances have a far more powerful influence than many like to admit.

If you have never seen or been taught a better way to raise your children then you'll do the same thing - it's all you know. We can see this in those TV shows where parents get help raising their children: unless someone shows you a better way to raise your kids then parents who have been abused do the same to their children.

it is a choice - some chose to change things and look at them from a fresh perspective others decide (choice again) that it is too hard or just dont want to look that closely - thats why I said we all need to question everything - your parents are just like you and I - they make the choices and decisions based on what they know -as in they do the best they can with what they have and who they are at the time. (Its a process you will soon find yourself in - you get to invent yourself or follow the beaten track behind everyone else lol)

You, their child can take a different path - thats your choice- you have to question their beliefs and decide if thats what you want for yourself and if it isnt you have the change to chose what you want to believe in and whats important to you.

They dont choose to be bad parents, they dont wanna explore other options - or dont know any different and didnt gain the drive to question everything... Maybe they never wanted kids and just want that time to be over and ignore it as hard as they can... they choose not to engage... their parents were bad at it and never taught them how to do it the right way (whatever that is), most just sit and think this is my lot - but they could have chosen to go out and learn how to do it better on their own.

Everything is a choice in my opinion, choose to stay the same as the last 5 generations or chose not to be the same and break the mold. I chose to break the mold my parents taught me because I didnt believe in the same things they did - but they did teach me I can seek I can look for answers and its not scary and I will be supported when I do that.

Dont get me wrong they were great parents, I just dont agree with some of the things they accept as realities (probably learned from their parents) things like hitting kids, I feel people do that for their own frustrations - try hitting one when you arent mad - just go up amd slap one for no reason, make it a good wallop - I couldn't do it can you? I feel there is other ways to discipline - they strongly object saying a smak does wonders. They dont believe in God and I do ... they think you dont need to apologise when you are wrong because that shows weakness, I apologise, and so on... you have to look for yourself and see what you think about things rather than just blindly following those before. Theyre gunna get annoyed at you for it but dont you all wanna know what you think about things without being swayed by others (including your family)Hey who knows, maybe its the right thing to believe in but if you dont test it you can never be sure

Everything is a choice in my opinion

I disagree. It's a very popular view nowadays (coming from the US) that you are responsible for everything that happens to your life. So you have to choose things, and everything that happens to you is a result of those choices. I think that's not true, and I think it's dangerous to go a bit further: Saying this about yourself ("if I'm in a bad situation, I should have made a different choice") is one thing, and it can give you motivation to try harder, which is fine. However, saying the same thing about others ("you're in a bad situation because you made a wrong choice, that's your fault, don't come running to me for help") is making the world a lot worse to live in.

Some people have more opportunities than others. Sure, part of your life comes from taking the good opportunities and leaving the bad ones. But a quite big part also comes from luck.

they did teach me I can seek I can look for answers and its not scary and I will be supported when I do that

You are very lucky with such parents. One of the most important things which make it possible to freely choose is that you feel safe. If you don't feel safe, your mind is not your own. It will go into survival-mode and do what it thinks is needed. If you feel safe, you can choose for yourself. Making that possible is perhaps the most important thing parents should do for their children. This is the main thing abused children are missing, and they usually have trouble with it their entire lives.

@ Simeon re: "Habits and circumstances have a far more powerful influence than many like to admit."

I respect what you are saying, but I know that habits result from choosing to do something repeatedly ie: smoking - you decide to take a first puff. For some, the addiction is instant. For others, it takes a while.
Generally, the smoker gets a "buzz" and sooner or later, they crave another rush, so they choose to smoke again. Cravings are not your' choice, but how you respond is.

If you react the same way repeatedly, your' neural pathways are strengthened, making the choice easier and quicker to make next time. It takes 10 years to become an expert according to Dr. K. Anders Ericsson.

@ Shevek re: "you are responsible for everything that happens to your life."

This is an unbalanced overstatement as you observed ("...I think it's dangerous to go a bit further..."). I also do not believe that it is a popular view, nor that it is a view propagated by the people of the USA.

In reply to your' post, everything is related to choice on some level, but not everything we experience can be controlled by our' choice, or we'd all win the lottery!

I'm going to risk angry reactions by using rape as an example. Let's say a young woman is raped while walking from the cinema, through a carpark, headed for the railway station in Ringwood, Victoria, Australia one night. She makes these choices: 1.) To walk alone at night. 2.) To pass through the carpark.

The risk of her being the victim of crime is not very high. She realises that although the carpark is dark, unpopulated and somewhat isolated it is the quickest route to the station and the Police station is just down the road.

This rationalizing happens predominantly in the subconscious.

So we come to the question which addresses Shevek's statement: "Everything is a choice in my opinion I disagree. It's a very popular view nowadays (coming from the US) that you are responsible for everything that happens to your life.". Was it the woman's choice that is reponsible for her rape? No. It was the rapist's choice. The woman consciously chose not to be raped, but was not powerful enough to escape. How does all this work - it seems very umjust, right?

Everywhere we go and everything we do involves risk; my ceiling could cave in and kill me in ten minutes' time. However, since the chance of this happening is extremely low, I choose to risk it. Another example is speeding while driving. I often drive 80 km/h on the 50 km/h roads around my house because I know I'm a good driver and that there are rarely police patrols or speed cameras in this area, yet I know I'm running numerous risks: 1.) Encountering a policeman 2.) A child could be playing on the road 3.) I could have a freak fit or concentration lapse 4.) Another car may be approaching in the middle of the narrow road etc. Each of these things has a greater or lesser chance of occuring, and by me choosing to speed, I run the risk of one of these dangers being realised.

So we can avoid danger by living in a protected shell, but we must run the risk of tragedy to enjoy our lives - for every rose there are many thorns.

No doubt this will lead to questions concerning God's alleged design of Earth/ mankind. I would be interested to work with these questions as they arise.

but I know that habits result from choosing to do something repeatedly

I don't think so - habits and addictions are not based on choice. Humans are very susceptible for doing things based on triggers. People see a fast food sign, they think of the taste of the food and without consciously choosing it, they're already inside the restaurant and ordering the food.

The same for smoking, drugs, alcohol and all other addictions: if they were based on repeated but wrong conscious choices, they would be much easier to cure: simply convince people that the choices are wrong. But it doesn't work like that: addicted people know that their actions are wrong but they do them anyway. There's something else at work here; people live their lives in patterns that appear to work well for them but that are actually destroying them.

I also do not believe that it is a popular view, nor that it is a view propagated by the people of the USA.

It very much is: society nowadays believes that we are responsible for our lives, see this talk for example. Business people commit suicide when their business fails and people keep buying self-help books to achieve success.

Your rape example does not discuss why the rapist decided to rape the woman. Common opinion is to say that some people are just evil and have no moral values: they just do whatever they want. But the reasons for committing crimes often run deeper than that: people live on the street, receive no love and they steal to stay alive. In those circumstances, rape is no different from hitting a person or firing a gun.

You could argue that the rapist has the choice not to rape, not to steal and not to use weapons... but that foregoes the psychological state of that person. Someone living in those cirumstances is no longer thinking about what is right in society, their life is no longer on track and they make different choices (so to speak). But from their perspective, their actions make sense. Once these people have been rehabilitated and function normally in society, they often agree that raping and stealing was indeed wrong but they felt they had no other choice.

It's the same for suicide bombing: if you're living in poverty and you're led to believe that after you die you'll be welcomed as a martar in heaven, then blowing yourself up does not seem so bad.

An interesting story appeared very recently that argues our choices are not as free as we'd like. This article is mainly about changes in the brain's chemistry / structure that influence our actions.

It all falls down to choice at the very end of the road you have the choice to jump off out of your sanity or walk back down that road of hate crime and the bunch. Some don't make it to the end but every time they are about to do something they can always pull out. And then there are the people lucky enough to not travel that road.

If you want to have fun laughing at religion, go to mormo.org and go to online chat. Ask the missionaries whatever you desire and they'll answer it in the most mormon way they can. Go ahead and ask them how magnets work.

Religion rockets next to a constant crown. Why does a rarer mumble turn with religion? How does an eating teacher waffle around religion? The microcomputer fusses opposite the vanished analogue. Religion associates with the mark past the newcomer.

"Religion rockets next to a constant crown. Why does a rarer mumble turn with religion? How does an eating teacher waffle around religion? The microcomputer fusses opposite the vanished analogue. Religion associates with the mark past the newcomer."

A Finnish diplomant issued this amazing statement in an international philosophical debate this week, dumbfounding the participants with it's sheer nonsensicality. While some have defended Mr. Skull's statement as "artsy" and "poetic", English critics remain skeptical.

Finland has been ordered to update it's Finnish to English language converters after the debacle as an inquest revealed them to based on hieraglyphic-like children's dictionanaries.

On a more serious note, I will address the above propositions after I return from studies this evening.

Why can't Schnapper shout around the innocence? Why can't a west occurrence discourage Schnapper? The sound grabs the poster underneath the plastic. The varied plotter achieves its heritage. The pork remembers Schnapper next to his top coordinate.

What are you on? Sounds like some seriously interesting stuff lol

MsDink pauses beside crack. The rat enters the originator. MsDink chops crack. The insidious committee finishes opposite an opus. A regime sneaks without the heroic fence. Crack implements the favorite song.

Once these people have been rehabilitated and function normally in society, You seriously dont think it is that easy?

Your rape example does not discuss why the rapist decided to rape the woman.
Although stereotypically it is males that rape - lets not forget it isnt always males ok that said...

He is merely feeding his need to control, he has a choice not to feed that need. He chose to learn that behaviour, somehow his reward from that act was enough to make him want that power over someone weaker again (and again?). He can choose to unlearn. Those little neuron pathways work both ways, but this takes time and a concious choice to relearn/retrain your brain. Again - its a choice he has to make and then act on (repeatedly to reforge those neurons in a different direction)!

He hasn't thought oh woe is me I have so little in life lets go rape someone before I steal a car... rape isnt about that. Rape is an act of violence, (power and control) nothing whatsoever about sex, and not because of someones life circumstances. Thats like saying because you are down and out you have more change of being a rapist - the reverse is actally true, hes more likely to have a job a wife and family and something like 96% actually know the victim so it isnt the stranger in the bushes you have to worry about!

"He" probably grew up being influenced by someone who exerted control over him and made him feel powerless/useless and instead of the many other choices he could have made he makes the one that sees him committing rape.

You could also look at the other side of the coin, it is amazing how frequent there is a kind of 'generational' victim theme running through some families, grandmother was raped, mother was raped and then daughter, all usually more than once - so what learned message do they put out there that defines them as targets that these offenders pick up on?

Now noone asked to be raped, no matter what the circumstances, but doesnt the behaviour appear to be learned when it goes on and on through generations (and believe me it really does) so why exclude the possibility of one of those women making a definate choice not to become a victim and changing something (whatever that is) to make things different from her generation forward.

I really believe we can make changes to our lives, we dont have to accept the expectations put on us by friends and family/parents or generational habits and the like, simply by chosing to you CAN 'change direction' and keep practicing it until it becomes part of you.

Gotta love that free will

So many long posts.

What I can say about rape and crime and grand theft auto is, you can't criticize Hanno or any other American Dinker. It's not their fault and I'm pretty sure there is more crime in other countries but media won't report it.

Well said, Msdink - I utterly respect what you have expressed.

I have been working with dementia patients and I utterly agree that there are people who cannot consciously choose their' actions. However, all to often "the devil made me do it" is the modern mindset - a person is that way because fate made them that way.

It's a crutch and it leads to psychological atrophy.

However, all to often "the devil made me do it" is the modern mindset - a person is that way because fate made them that way. It's a crutch and it leads to psychological atrophy.

Did you read the article that I linked earlier in this discussion? It's very long but it discusses very well the view that free will (if it exists) has very little room to operate in. I don't think the devil or a demon makes someone do it, that's the traditional religious view that people are evil and out of control. That's an outdated view.

However I do think that a person is that way because their past (not necessarily 'fate') made them that way. Someone's past is reflected in everything they do: the way they walk, look, talk, and act is influenced by their past. You may say that any person has free will to act differently at any point in time but I don't think that's true.

Read the biographies of serial killers, people in prisons or violent gangs and you'll see that someone's past and environment is a better predictor of what that person is going to do than the idea that people will break free by choice.

You seriously dont think it is that easy?

I didn't say it was easy. But people can and do move on after having committed horrible crimes.

Regarding the rape example: so in your view both the rapist and the victim have the choice of not letting it happen again. That sounds reasonable but I'm not yet convinced that this holds, see my explanation on free will below.

I really believe we can make changes to our lives, we dont have to accept the expectations put on us by friends and family/parents or generational habits and the like, simply by chosing to you CAN 'change direction' and keep practicing it until it becomes part of you.

Gotta love that free will

You can believe that if you want. I just don't think there's sufficient biological evidence for the idea that our will is (fully) free. It may seem that way to us because we don't know how our brains work.

However, here's the thing: if I knew everything about you: your past, your memories, the neural paths in your brain right now, I could predict with 100% accuracy what you're going to do. That is currently not possible but it will be, in a few decades from now.

Why do you think websites are trying to gather so much data about individuals? Because people are predictable as hell! They are not the beings with free will that people would like to believe in. The more companies know, the more they can sell you on products, ads and information.

In fact, the whole field of human science is built on the idea that people are predictable: if they weren't then psychological experiments wouldn't be repeatable across the globe. Human behavior is very well open to analysis and it leads to predictable outcomes. Same thing for medicines: our biochemistry functions the same in every individual (minus individual variations due to genetic differences).

You could respond and say: well, people have free will, it's just that they tend to make the same choices in the given circumstances. Yes, maybe, but perhaps in that case our will is not as free as it's claimed to be.

Yes, but at any point anyone - regardless of what has gone before, can stop and say this is not how I want to be going forward - you don't HAVE to carry the legacy of your past, you CAN choose not to but a lot decide its 'too hard' and they 'can't' and 'don't even try' because of their past, they believe for them there is no other way or dont even think about it because theyre too busy "being in it".

So I guess what I am saying is all this takes is to recognise you can change,(and thats huge to get to that point for a lot of people) then want to do it, then setting in action steps to move towards those changes.

The point is, I think, that not many recognise the need or even that they have the option available to them to make those changes, their past as you say - doesnt allow them to think there is any other way and thats the roadblock, not that they cant make or dont have choices available to them.

yes people are sheep , they do the same things and take the same paths because they have learned them and its easier, so they continue and become predictable etc, that said it still does not mean we can't exercise our free will, just that most don't bother.

I agree that few recognize they can change, this may also be due to fear of change. For many it's better to be unhappy in a situation that you know rather than doing something (fearful 'change') to make it better.

But is it a choice? Could it also be viewed as a burden that is starting to weigh more heavily with each passing year until it bursts and the person actually does something to change the situation?

You're right that people can make radical decisions to change their lives, I'm just thinking about how this decision takes place. Is it really a free will decision or is it a result of their life in the past that causes them to change? I don't know how the brain works so I don't have the answer sadly

I just shoot anyone who tells me to do something in a certain way. Enough of a free life for me.

Anyway, "the devil made me do it" is one of the many religious ways of trying not to blame yourself. It's like saying "That guy said I suck so I punched him in the nose. It's not my fault". We see that a lot in the kindergartens.

mm I still can't see how it isn't a choice in the end that it comes down to... you still get to react to change etc but you can also decide to do nothing, no matter whats happening around you, I guess thats why I feel its a choice not something your brain takes over and decides for you.

Another thought while chatting about this is that I suppose it could come down to whether you are accepting of whether you are part spirit and part flesh - like what is the ME part of you. I can never define just what that bit is, is it the brain - pathways and functions or is it the part of you thats all feelings and thoughts, emotions, etc? Are they seperate or the same? So, if one (or both)of those parts of you are uncontrollable by you then no you cant choose I guess, but if its part of you that you can control and use - then yes its a decision/choice - maybe?

I would hate to think I dont have a choice in anything...

Your thoughts?

Simeon, I did indeed read the article you presented. In my comment, I clearly stated that, yes, there are circumstances in which humans act without personal choice.

It seems, however, that you are desperate to be 100% right at any cost, since you erroneously deny the power of choice in all events.

Now, in regards to "the devil made me do it", you have taken literally a metaphore, an euphemism. I presume that this is because the average Dutch speaker has not come to grips with English's intricacies AKA language barrier. It is a common mistake for people with English as second language to make.

You stated "I don't think the devil or a demon makes someone do it, that's the traditional religious view that people are evil and out of control. That's an outdated view."

Now, when we say "the devil made me do it" we DO NOT mean a literal demonoid forced someone to "sin". It IS NOT a "traditional religious view" (atheist ignorance rears its' ugly head yet again), since most religions believing in Satan (in the Shaitan AKA "adversary" sense of the name) don't believe he is capable of forcing the average Joe Blow to do anything.
What "the devil made me do it" refers to is any adverse situation, experience or event which you (probably deludedly) think left you with no alternative save the course of action which you took.

An example of what I'm saying is "I only hit her because she kept screaming at me." A person is blaming a "demon" (so to speak; not literally per se) to deflect the blame from themself.

Fail on Schnapper for not knowing Finnish, and fail on Google for translating so badly.

Are you guys seriously so desperate to debate over something that neither of you can ever win? Neither of you can be proven right nor wrong. It's like if I say moon rotates around Earth, it isn't necessarily the truth nor wrong. It could just seem from the human point of view that it's rotating around Earth.

which left you with no alternative save the course of action which you took.

May be 'thought' you had no alternative would work better in there, there is always bulk choices (hehe darnit, there's that word again), but you don't always look on them as options because you don't like the consequences or outcome - so you discount them.

And schnapps is right - you can say "the devil made me do it" so you don't have to take responsibility for your actions, it also can be used as kind of 'tongue in cheek'comment as well. Like you have been caught in the act of doing something real dumb but you still don't want to be accountable you say the devil made you... geesh isnt english stoopid hehe why dont we just say what we mean! We cloak everything.

It seems, however, that you are desperate to be 100% right at any cost, since you erroneously deny the power of choice in all events.

Why erroneously? Do you know how the brain works and how/whether choices are made? I even said in my previous post that I don't claim to have the answer because we don't know how things really work. I'm just offering my view that I don't think our will is as free as we'd like to think it is.

Anyway, if I took your comment on "the devil made me do it" the wrong way then that's my mistake.

I presume that this is because the average Dutch speaker has not come to grips with English's intricacies AKA language barrier. It is a common mistake for people with English as second language to make.

Isn't English your second language too? Mexicans speak Spanish right? We can all make language mistakes

since most religions believing in Satan (in the Shaitan AKA "adversary" sense of the name) don't believe he is capable of forcing the average Joe Blow to do anything.

That is not my experience. To the contrary, religious people are reminded time and time again to resist the temptations of Satan. Even doubting whether your religion is right or not is seen as an act of the devil to tempt you. If you believe that God can do miracles in the world then the other side of the coin is that Satan can tempt people too. Isn't that the common explanation for why the world is in big trouble these days? You know, the devil trying to make people sin even more?

Ok so to look at it from another way - can we choose to move countries, change jobs, marry someone, leave someone - what is this if it isnt a choice or free will to do what we desire? Take me - I chose to leave a toxic relationship - the choices were hard and it was so much easier to stay and put up with it, leaving effected more than just me, but I made that decision and followed through.

So why would that not be me choosing something better for my life, and if you disagree - what would you call it instead of a choice?

You made it home yet Simeon?

Broadly speaking, you can consider those actions as choices. It's just that I don't have a good explanation as to how it (= free will) would work. Basically, information about the world around us goes into our brain all the time and based on that we take certain actions.

The world around us works based on cause and effect: an apple falls due to gravity, an explosion happens to due chemical reactions, electrons move around to power electrical machines and so on. These actions take place without a certain "choice", they just happen based on things that have been set into motion.

Now, why would our brain/being be different? Because our neurons can't really choose how to send electrical signals around in the brain, can they? They just act out according to physical laws. So the question is, if we are purely physical beings (the commonly accepted view these days), then how exactly can we exercise "free will" if we are subjected to the laws of physics.

You could say that we have some magical "soul" or "spirit" where those "free will decisions" are made but then all discussions are off the hook.

In your case of leaving a toxic relationship: at the level of everyday speech we can consider it your choice. But biologically speaking I'm not sure whether it's not just the inevitable result of your past. Some people never break free because they remain too afraid for that other person and the bad situation just continues. My key point is that although things can be explained in terms of "options" and "free will", I'm not sure whether they are really there. It's really hard to define "free will" in the first place.

I think what Simeon's trying to say is that life is like a movie-script. We do not, in the end, have choices. Life has already chosen which what we will do.

I'm satisfied, Simeon. Thankyou - I have enjoyed discussing this with you. I agree that there are circumstances and even actions over which we may have no control.

I suspect Skull may be right - we can never fully quantify how much is choice and how much is forced upon us. Inspite of this, I choose to be the best I can and I encourage others to be the best they can.

Australian Mexicans tend to speak English But you actually have very good English overall: even life-long English speakers struggle with English (especially Shakespeare)

I think that, yes, many Christians believe Satan's sole purpose for existence is to cause people to sin. I suppose I have my own interpretations of the Bible which I believe in - on this subject, I currently believe that "Satan's" primary objective is destroy "God" in every imaginable way.

Ed: I have just noticed Skull's comment come in. On this matter, I believe God to operate outside of time and space. Thus I would assume God sees a human life in a similar way to how a movie director sees a storyboard: the whole thing in one frame. I do not believe in predestination, however. God relieved himself of that ability when he gave humans freedom of choice.

Aren't you from Australia anyway, Schnapper?

This discussion seems to be winding down, but I wanted to see what you think of this, Simeon. You said:

Now, why would our brain/being be different? Because our neurons can't really choose how to send electrical signals around in the brain, can they? They just act out according to physical laws. So the question is, if we are purely physical beings (the commonly accepted view these days), then how exactly can we exercise "free will" if we are subjected to the laws of physics.

Quantum mechanics, at least the dominant interpretations of it, suggests that events on the atomic level have an element of randomness. So the history of the universe wouldn't be entirely predictable even if we knew all the initial conditions. So that would apply to our neurons too, and in that sense our wills could be "free," though probably in a different sense from what MsDink and maybe schnapper are using.

I think most discussions of free will equivocate (unintentionally) on the terms free and possibly will.

I think that this debate has been entirely too polite.

Quantum mechanics, at least the dominant interpretations of it, suggests that events on the atomic level have an element of randomness. So the history of the universe wouldn't be entirely predictable even if we knew all the initial conditions. So that would apply to our neurons too, and in that sense our wills could be "free," though probably in a different sense from what MsDink and maybe schnapper are using.

I think most discussions of free will equivocate (unintentionally) on the terms free and possibly will.

I have heard about this in quantum physics as well. I just don't know enough about it to know what it means for our actions. A random choice doesn't really appear to be "my choice" either. But it may be that at this point (in our brain) we can influence our choices at a biological level, it's just not clear to me.

If we understand what this means for our brain then we can probably say a lot more about free will or not. Projects are underway to understand the human brain by 2050 (hopefully) so that's promising research.

A random choice doesn't really appear to be "my choice" either.

Yeah, that's what I think too. If our actions are completely determined, we're prisoners to causality. If they're random (as in not causally determined), we're prisoners to chance. But still we have this concept of free will that seems to be different from either of those. So that tells me we need to define free will very carefully, more than I've seen in discussions like these. Some have proposed a notion of self-causation, but I don't think it makes sense. It seems to avoid the issue by playing with words. But I haven't explored it very far.

Understanding the brain would help the world in a lot of ways, so let's hope they can do it! That kind of knowledge could also be misused horribly, so let's hope the human race can restrain itself too. Those of us who pray should pray for that.

If we can understand human brain, we can fix homos. Nuff said.

Nah scratcher - its a discussion and I have to go to work and not get to read all that got discussed when I was asleep Has been very interesting so far...

Rape is an act of violence, (power and control) nothing whatsoever about sex...

Actually, rape is about sex, too. Just, you know, not consensual sex.

Nope its all power/control

No, but that is a common misconception. Though rape is often used for control and intimidation, it can also be about sexual gratification. In the instance of a psychopath (who inherently lacks empathy) or in someone who can view their victim as being less than themself, perhaps rationalizing that the victim even deserved it or wanted it, it very much be about the perpetrator's own pleasure. The psychology involved can stem from more than a single, simple motive.

Hehe, yes Skull, I am Aussie. People in New South Wales refer to us Victorians as "Mexicans" because we're "below the border". My flag and tag is also a direct reference to one of Elvis' songs. Furthermore, Mexican history and culture (and cuisine XD) interests me.

Now, why would our brain/being be different? Because our neurons can't really choose how to send electrical signals around in the brain, can they? They just act out according to physical laws. So the question is, if we are purely physical beings (the commonly accepted view these days), then how exactly can we exercise "free will" if we are subjected to the laws of physics.

I don't know much about this stuff, but I imagine the complex mix of chemicals and electricity so masterfully engineered must result in some interesting reactions more complex then bits of stuff floating around. Whilst most cells fundamentally strive to satisfy their' drive to survive and reproduce, arrangements of these cells create entirely new machines. Whilst a computer is most often hungry for electricity, this is not always the case and it certainly displays more functionality then merely consuming volts.

Biological cells are infinitely more complex and efficient then computers. Also consider that brain cells do not reproduce... I suspect there is more then a flushy tangle of gore beneath our' skulls.

hhehe that was the field I worked in until about 3 months ago striker - and all statistics show the answer is nope tain't sexual sorry

So far predator everything you say is geared toward pissing people off, which is no accident. Your not a brave, fact filled, tough guy just telling it like it is, your a douche that is either A: trolling or B: Trying to belittle everyone who is different from you or has different views.

So No MsDink, he isnt starting fair arguments and having an opinion, he is being a douchbag. However, freedom of speech allows you to be a douche, but that doesn't mean anyone will like you.

No MsDink, he isnt starting fair arguments and having an opinion, he is being a douchbag.

Don't start on me Hanno I am not interested in joining in on internet spaz attacks! Its you I see trying to start a fight right now not him, he hasnt said a word in here for ages

Another hint at his trollness. And I didn't feel like you defining him as a new member telling it like it is, because thats not what he is about, at all

So should I run my opinions past you first in future? Silly me I didn't know because what I said was my opinion.

No you should stop adding a smiley face at the end of everything, because that doesn't change the meaning, and sticking up for people who are just trying to belittle other and start rageing and pointless debates. "Religion is for Brainless sheep"......ok?

You been here a week and are telling me how to make my posts? Arrogant litt... *coff* Not gunna argue with you Hanno - your opinion means zip to me Ohh and thats me poking my tongue - not smiling at you

Edit I refur you to...here incase you missed it the first time through. (<---- Thats a smiley lol)

His posts are way more sensible than yours anyhow, MsDink.

hhehe that was the field I worked in until about 3 months ago striker - and all statistics show the answer is nope tain't sexual sorry

If that's what your job came out with, maybe it's better you left it. Your job sucks.

Change Hanno to skull You are like a dag hanging off the bum of a sheep - gerroff!

Haha, if an argument is what you want, I can always go tell people how you were afraid of ExDeathevn. xD

Skull, I normally quite like you, but right now you're being a wanker. Give Msdink a break; Hanno is being an arrogant hypocrite by trolling Predator claiming predator is a troll.

Also, Simeon, Msdink, myself and - to a lesser degree - Skull were having a good discussion until you came along with your' noobery, Hanno. One post railing against Predator was enough - once you start tainting perfectly good threads, I get irrate.

And why exactly would I give a rat's ass about your opinion? Listen, I ain't gonna give anyone a break, unless I feel like it.

I don't particularly care, but at the moment the only "rat's ass" is yours. With your' head jammed up it.

If you want to insult somebody, at least try to come up with a proper insult. At the moment you're like MsDink #2.

hhehe that was the field I worked in until about 3 months ago striker - and all statistics show the answer is nope tain't sexual sorry

I know that motivation makes it more palatable to the victim, but perhaps you could elaborate on why you feel why power (with nothing to do with sex) is the only reason. Merely stating that "all statistics show" and appealing to your authority is not a convincing argument. Even a cursory glance of Wikipedia (which has become a rather good source for information these days) shows that there are multiple possible motivations for rape.

Also, to say that power can't be sexual, well... I know for a personal fact that's not true.

I actually agree with nearly everything you say schnapper, but how am I being a troll? am I doing what he is doing? don't think so.
Oh he has also threatened people now, not that I take it seriously, but its sort of something I also dont do

That it Hanno you have made a powerful enemy today how can i explain in a that dumb american can understand
youre be a troll by contantly calling a me doche. Hanno youre trying to belittle me by calling me doche and youre accusing me by calling me troll you hypocrite man if i met you in person i think you will change your slogan to GET BIG to GET SCARED

Hanno, I think you're a decent bloke. My trolling comment was mainly in reference to your' hi-jacking of the thread. I'm glad if what I say makes sense to you - the reason we argue is so we come to a better understanding of the world (for want of a better noun) around us.

I understand that Predator has been rather irritating, but you and he are both new. I was an irritating jackass when I first arrived here, and I won't say I'm always cool even now. Really, I hope you both find your' individual places here and have a good time.

Ahh a topic change - is this ok when there are so many little dinkers with so much time on their hands out there...? Answers anyways...

Sorry Striker - rough couple of days so been a bit longer than intended, I read the article on wicki, pasted it below...
----------------------------Start -----------------------------------------
The research on convicted rapists has found several important motivational factors in the sexual aggression of males. Those motivational factors repeatedly implicated are having anger at women and having the need to control or dominate them.[1]

Factors increasing men's risk of committing rape include alcohol and other drug consumption, being more likely to consider victims responsible for their rape, being less knowledgeable about the impact of rape on victims, being impulsive and having antisocial tendencies, having an exaggerated sense of masculinity, having a low opinion on women, being a member of a criminal gang, having sexually aggressive friends, having been abused as a child and having been raised in a strongly patriarchal family.

A study by Marshall et al. (2001) found that male rapists had less empathy toward women who had been sexually assaulted by an unknown assailant and more hostility toward women than nonsex offenders and nonoffender males/females.[2]

Freund et al. (1983) stated that most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex,[3] and Marshall et al. (1991) stated that there are no significant differences between the arousal patterns of male rapists and other males.[4]
------------------------------End--------------------------------------

Thats copied and pasted from the reference you provided, I really can't see where you don't think it is power and control after reading that.
Those motivational factors repeatedly implicated are having anger at women and having the need to control or dominate them.

The really sad thing is that children who are raped have a higher chance of becoming offenders themselves if they dont gain access to help - counselling etc, they have anger issues from suppressed feelings and here in NZ the male victim/support organisation did a survey of the males they saw in prison and believe it or not 86% of males in NZ prisons have been raped or interfered with as kids. So not all go on to rape - but the suppressed anger etc propells them into other crimes - its as if they don't care because "someone was never held accountable for what happened to them"

A lot also resort to physical violence and substance abuse... bleedin sad really.

Sex is so easy to get these days, with the promiscuity of everyone, including the younger girls, and there is a new breed as well called 'cougars' lol, - you dont even need to pay for it, so rape isnt necessary to get laid, its a choice based I feel, on agression :|

(Ohh did you see what I did thar - I just linked that back to our original discussion hehehehe "choice").

I do however never totally agree with wicki because (I think...) its just people like you and me adding to it so it is a lot of their knowledge and ideals / slants on things unknowingly input as well.

Schnapper, it's not hi-jacking. Haven't you already learned that every thread in TDN goes off-topic?

This thread is about Religion stop trying to achange to rape or other stuff if you want to talk about those stuff GET LOST!! and make your own thread msdink skull Hanno.

Mere person is not enough to destroy tradition.

Hey, that sounded kinda cool, didn't it guys?

I have never said that rape wasn't about power. You asserted that it was ONLY about power and that it couldn't be about sex, which is not true. These are not two mutually exclusive things.

What kind of contest - slapping, spitting or swearing? And Striker - I believe it is only about power and control, yes (that has been my experience)

100% correct. how sad it is to exist in the wrong era.